Lead From Any Level - Leading Down

John: You’re listening to The Present Professional.

Tony: Where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

John: To change your experience of life and work with every episode. So tune in, grab your notebook, and let’s go.

Tony: Let’s go.

John: Welcome to another episode of the present professional today. We’re kicking off our series called lead from any level. We’ll be going through the 360 degree leader by John Maxwell and our interpretations of some of the topics that come up in that book. And we’ll have that book for you in the show notes of each of the episodes of the series. In this episode today, we’re going to be talking about leading down. So from any top down place in your life, from management, supervisor, first time supervisor to executive. You’ll find value in some of these things that we go through here. And if you can take one thing into your leadership, I think you’ll find that it makes a difference in the way you move about your day and move about your career. With that being said, I’m going to let Tony kick us off with our first topic here.

Tony: Yeah, man. Thank you. Thank you, John. I love this topic. I love this book, John Maxwell, 360 Leader. So I know we won’t be giving you every single nugget from the book because we would literally have to do an entire new podcast called the 360 Leader because it’s that much information. But I just love when you think about 360 leading, you think about leading from any level, and you believe that you can do that. I know from my personal experience, I have had the opportunity to lead at all levels. I’ve led from the bottom up of just being a staff member and really feeling like I had no influence, but actually having influence and just not realizing it until someone tapped me on my head and said, hey, you got all the potential in the world to do this, do that. I’m like, but I’m 23. And they’re like, no, it’s time now. And so, you know, then all the way to, of course, leading across and then leading the organizations. And so, like you mentioned, with the first topic of leading down, you know, John Maxwell talks about walking slowly through the halls. That’s kind of how he paraphrases it, but it’s a lot more than that. It’s a lot more than just walking slowly through the halls. It’s actually how you spend your time with people. He mentions parenting as an example of when you’re working with staff or working with your company or your employees. because he says that just like children, we have to take time, we have to slow down and operate at the level of the other people that you’re working with. As a new dad, like I always reference, I resonated with this a lot because when I’m dealing with my son, the best thing to do to get him to do what I need him to do is to get on his level, even if that means getting on the floor, right? Getting on the floor, looking at him eye to eye, playing with his toys on the floor. I mean, that is the best way to make connection. And that same example can be used at work and not to call workers or staff children. But it’s like as a leader, you have to slow down and make sure that you’re properly connecting with your staff. You don’t want to be walking through the hallway super fast when you have people trying to talk to you, even if you’re on your way to a meeting. He even talks about a tip that I would share with people is to get into your meetings early. If you’re in your meetings 10, 5, 15 minutes early, when people start to arrive, whether it’s in person or virtual, you have the opportunity to connect with people as they arrive. And as you connect with the people, now you can create more relationship. And even, he said, don’t even worry about starting on time. He says, don’t start your meeting until you’ve actually connected with the people that you have, your meeting that you’re about to start. So I just love some of the things that he was giving, you know, and as a leader myself and as someone who works with leaders, You know, I would say that when you’re thinking about this principle and you’re thinking about walking slowly through the halls, you really want to make sure that you’re visible. You want to make sure that people can see you. You want to make sure that people can actually have a conversation with you that is not just transactional. Because that way you can really broaden someone’s life and make sure that they are truly understanding who you are as a person. It’s not always work first. You can put the person first and put the people first and then you have a healthier work environment. you know last thing I’ll say is you know an example he gave is if someone’s wife is sick or going through a tough time you don’t want to know that when it gets bad you want to know that beforehand because you actually know the people that you’re working with so you want to get to know them on a regular basis and say How’s Lisa doing? How’s Crystal doing? How’s Rachel doing? You want to ask questions specifically to see how their family is doing, just in general. If you don’t know, you’re going to feel pretty bad if your close colleague suddenly tells you that a spouse or a family member is terminally ill or anything like that, and then you didn’t find out because all you do is ask them about work. So I love this principle. So I can’t wait to dive into the next one. But anything you’re thinking about, John, anything came up for you?

John: You know, what I’m hearing is meeting people where they are, right, is the greatest form of empathy is to meet people where they are. And, you know, when you’re taking the time to really get to know someone, this is, it’s part of the process. And, you know, I loved what you said about getting on the floor. And for some leaders, that could really be getting on the factory floor. It could be going out to the site. It could be even translated to your customers, right? And getting down to the ground level, the people that your customers are interacting with, depending on where you are as a leader. It’s really not that you have to be in control of what’s happening at that level. But being present and letting them know that you’re interested, invested, that you have their interests in mind because you’re there spending the time, then at the same time trusting your folks to get the job done at that level. empowering them to get the job done, and understanding that it’s not your responsibility directly to make sure that each task is done the way that you would have done it, the way that you think it should be done, but empowering the people to do it in the best way that they can, empowering the people with the skills that you feel would help them get it done in the best way that they can. that is done, I feel, in the best way by being there, by getting on the floor. I love that. When you talked about your son, that’s like literally on the floor. I’m like, people really need to do that. Leaders really need to get on the floor.

Tony: Yeah, you got to get eye level with people because, you know, as a leader, a lot of times you already can see the end of the road. You can see, you have the vision, you see the end, you know how you guys are going to get there. If your staff is not able to understand that with you, then the best thing you could do is walk side by side with them and help them get there. Instead of wondering, why don’t they just get it? Why can’t he just see it the way I see it? Well, it’s because that person may have a lot going on. They may have a whole different lifestyle than you. They’re likely not getting paid what you’re getting paid. So you want to make sure that you’re at least able to connect with them so they see you and they can see you as a trusted advisor and maybe even a friend.

John: And I think what you said about seeing the end and knowing how to get there, I think there’s value in asking and relying on your teams, your people, to help you get to that end. To even help look at what that vision is and what would be the best path to get there because If you really see every one of your employees as a 10, or if you see all of your people as having something unique to contribute that they were hired on for a reason, then their insight could really add value to the way that you’re looking out, the way that you’re looking at the end goal. And I think, I think great leaders pull in insights from people on the ground floor. The great leaders pull in insights from people in different departments, from different legs of the offer. And really, a great leader is only as good as their team of advisors.

Tony: Yeah, man, you know, it’s funny you say that because one thing that is touched on throughout 360 Leader is the fact that leaders in the middle have a severe competitive advantage over the leaders at the top when it comes to getting to know the people. Because when you’re at the top of the organization, you aren’t necessarily wanting to be unavailable to the people. Your schedule may not allow it. You may be dealing with bigger issues. You may be peer-to-peer a lot. But when you’re in the middle, you have the ability to go up, down, all around. and really get to know the people that are at the bottom. So we’ll talk about that in the next episode, I’m sure. But when you’re at the top, you have to dig. You have to really break silos and force yourself to connect with the lower level staff. And so it’s not a natural thing. And so you may need a coach to help you or remind you of how to do that and how to make it a reality. Because like you said, John, you want to see everybody as a 10. You want to see everybody as a winner. You want to see everybody as someone that was hired on for a reason. But it’s even better when you can actually get face to face with them and get to know them on their level. Then they actually can receive what you quote unquote believe in them.

John: Right. And I think a lot of that even happens in informal spaces as well. This is why team building events and getting people out of the office is so essential. I can remember some of the best interactions that I’ve had with my leadership was over a beer at a conference. Some of the best interactions I’ve had were out to lunch, at a happy hour. And where you can really sit down with someone and see them as a whole person, not just as a directive, not as someone that needs to be coached, but someone that is here to be understood.

Tony: Yeah, really. Did you have another one you want to jump into? You want me to jump to the next one?

John: Well, I think naturally when we’re talking about the whole person, when we’re talking about getting to know someone as they are and taking that time, I think you mentioned it well is, you know, your time looks different. as you move up the ladder. So it might look different how much time you have to spend. And I love this way of looking at commitment. I heard it recently from Steven Pressfield. author of The War of Art, another great book if anyone wants to take a look into that. And he mentioned that it’s about 100% commitment. So even if before you had 25% of your time where you could have spent getting to know different people and interacting with your teams, but you were 50% committed to it, it would be less than having only 10% of your time and being 100% committed. So it’s really as your time gets more scarce, your executive presence, your self-awareness, the way that you connect with folks, like has to get that much more committed, that much more present. So you can spend that 10% of your time, 100% committed.

Tony: Yeah, that’s like the essence of our entire podcast. The present professional is be present because even if you only have 10% of your time, you want to give 100%. Man, I love that. I love that.

John: And when you’re seeing everyone as a 10, right, when you’re believing that they were hired for a reason, you’re going to look for their strengths, right? So I, I look at that title, seeing everyone as a 10 as right spotting. Like, are you looking for what’s right with your people? Or are you looking for their failures? Or are you looking for what they lack? Are you looking for what they missed? Right? It’s a whole change of perspective when you’re looking for what people do right, what their strengths are, and how you can leverage those. So I think that’s another key part to development. And when it comes to developing your people, Tony, what’s the first thing that comes to your mind there that would have the most impact?

Tony: Man, I mean, developing people is just a long-term process. That’s the first thing I’d say. When you’re developing someone, you want to make sure that you are in it for the long haul. You don’t want to have one conversation with someone and expect them to change or to grow based off the one thing that you said as a as a leader at the top who said maybe one amazing line and then you expect people to just suddenly like start to become more aware more like you know it’s really a it could be a daily process it could be a weekly process I’d even say go a little above and beyond and try to schedule time with your peers or with your staff that you want to see grow in a certain area. You talked about so much with the 10 piece and there’s a subject called deficit thinking that I wanted to touch on. So deficit thinking is when you immediately go to the negative, kind of like what you just said. When someone does something or says something and you think only about the negative but The opposite of that is when you think more about the assets that you have, or the assets that the person brings. So the person may not be performing as an automatic 10 in a normal stance, but you think about the assets that they bring, and you also think about their potential. And then that’s how you help develop them, because you remember that it’s a long-term process. Another thing that you need to do as a leader is really get to know your people. Get to know their dreams, get to know their desires, because they may have a dream or desire to do something completely different than the job that they’re currently doing or maybe they have a long-term position in your company that they want to achieve one day but if they never tell you that or you never give them an opportunity to have that that conversation with you as a leader, then you’ll never know. You know, they may want to be a sous chef or they may want to be an executive at your company. And so you need to understand and know that so you can position them well. You can’t place people in their strength zones if you don’t even know what their what their vision is. You have your vision. but they have theirs and your vision and their vision could not be aligned in a way where maybe they don’t want to be what you want them to be and you need to already start to prepare yourself to find the person that you’re actually looking for instead of molding someone into what you think they should be. So, I mean, I could go on and on, but I want to pause and see if you have any thoughts about, you know, development in general. What’s some of the principles that you kind of align with?

John: I love what you said about the, about getting to know everyone’s dreams, desires. And then, you know, when you’re thinking about people as assets, their strengths as assets, I started going, going back to the football field. You know, going back to the basketball court, and when we look at a team, when we look at athletes, everyone is utilized based on their strengths. Not one person is playing every position. You know, you can’t put a wide receiver at offensive tackle. It just doesn’t work like that. And that’s so easily seen and known and accepted, yet I find when we come into the workplace, we have these positions. We define roles based on what the organization needs. We define roles based on an organizational objective. And then we have these roles and we put people in them. based on their experience, their resume, but how often are we putting people in the roles based on their desires? I think that that is a gap that I’ve seen in different organizations, and something that really needs to have more focus is being like, let’s have a conversation. Let me help you get to know yourself. So what are the things that you desire? What are the things that you see yourself doing? What are the things that come natural to you? Let it be an easy transition into the role. And yes, of course, there are times that there is an organizational need and there is someone there to do the job. Maybe it’s an interim role, maybe it’s something that’s a little bit more long-term, but is understood within the employee that it’s a development area, that it’s a place that they’re hitting along a career trajectory that is going to make a difference for where they want to be in the long-term. But it has to be tied to part of the vision, the collective vision to where it’s like, you know, maybe we’re making a little bit of a sacrifice and also connected to or connected to what they want to be long term, right? So it’s when we’re connected to something, some meaning, some internal motivator, we can do hard things, right? We can take on a role that maybe isn’t a natural fit for some time. But when we place people in a role specifically just for an organizational need without looking for the desires and natural strengths of an employee or new hire, it’s there’s always going to be some tension there.

Tony: Yep, yep. And I love how you brought in the sports analogy because, I mean, you can’t be a 5’11 center in the NBA, right? But you could be a point guard. But, you know, sometimes people may want to play a different position, but they just don’t have the skills or they just don’t have the natural fit. And so developing them is super critical. And I’d say too, be willing to spend extra time with those people that may not be in the right position and be willing to invest in them, be willing to put the budget behind them to make sure that they get trained. you know, whatever things you can provide to that individual because a lot of times people want to be at a company. That’s why they came there in the first place. They just don’t know how to develop themselves. Self-development is not a natural skill that people have, but everybody can be taught. Everybody can be molded and shaped if they are willing to be. So, you know, I just say that, you know, as a 360 leader, someone that leads in all different types of directions, I would just say, you know, make sure that you are listening to your people, make sure you understand what they want to do long term, and then make sure you put your money where your mouth is. And if you have the budget, support them so that they can get the proper training that they need to do what you’re asking them to do.

John: Perfect. And when you say you put your money where your mouth is, that means so many things as a leader, right? And this is what you desire, your vision, the culture that you want to have within your teams and your organization. like modeling that behavior, even when things get hairy, when things get, when things are great, like modeling that behavior, consistency is going to show your people what matters. And at the same time, let them understand that you’re human. When you get off that consistent behavior, when you mess up, when you have an inherent bias come up, when you’re stressed and you make an offhand remark, check yourself. Because modeling human behavior also shows that people can make mistakes, which is going to increase psychological safety in your teams. So it’s modeling the behavior you want to have in your culture, and then at the same time, just speaking up when you’re not on that. When you go off that wavelength, it’s like, hey, I messed up. And that’s just what we do because we’re human. So know that you can acknowledge your mistakes as well. So there was another thing that you said in there that I wanted to touch on. Using an outside resource to help you place people in their strength zones, to show where your team can be best suited, so to set up your starting five on the court or your 11 on the field, having an outside resource for some of that can be very helpful as well. Right. And you see a lot of folks like come in with surveys here, surveys there, but then it’s like, when are you actually taking the action to place people in areas where they can leverage their strengths, leverage their personality, leverage the way that they take in information. So hiring a coach, hiring a consulting service to come in and do an evaluation, to see where your people stand, to get an outside perspective can sometimes open a lot of doors. If you haven’t been able to spend a lot of time with folks, but you can have a coach or a service come in and speak to each of your employees, go through an Enneagram test, some type of 360 or personality assessment, and just getting to know where people stand and facilitating a discussion, facilitating an exercise where your team can start to get to know those different aspects of each other, That can already help people work better together in the places they sit, but then also having those profiles and letting people help you take action based on those profiles and what people want can help you set up that starting five, can help you set up your starting 11, to have people in the positions that come naturally to them and that they’re a fit for. So I wanted to put a plug in there that hiring someone to come in is not copping out. It’s not copping out to say that I don’t need to get to know my people, I’m just putting some money out there and they’ll think that I’m investing in them. No, you’re present there, you’re invested, you believe in what you’ve paid for, and you convey that message to your people as well. How that’s going to be used I think is a big thing when you bring in outside services, coaches, consultants, that communicating to your people the why behind that, how it’s part of the vision, how it can impact them. and how you believe that it’s going to impact the way that you work together and their success is huge when you’re bringing in any outside service or other insights to help you run your business better. So I wanted to plug that in there. It doesn’t always have to be relying on you. Ask for help. Look for the best of the best, rather than trying to develop a new system to help you place your people, to help you work better. Look for people that already have a system. Look for systems that work. What would it look like if it were easier? Who could I ask for help? Where could I invest? All things a leader has to be asking themselves.

Tony: Two things. One, if you have ever experienced coach, consultant, facilitator, you know how good it feels when you’re in the room and somebody is from the outside is doing that kind of work for a group. Because more than likely as a leader, at some point you’ve experienced that. On the flip side of that, if you’re a leader and you’re considering booking this, you may be hesitant to actually bring in someone from the outside, understand that you and that person can align on your vision before they begin their services. So they’re not coming in as the bad guy, they’re coming in is your ally. They’re not going to be biased. They’re not going to lie to people. They’re not going to deceive anybody. But if you have a vision that you’re trying to get out and it’s just not coming across the way that you hoped it would or you want it to come across, that is a key indicator that you need to bring in someone to help you, someone to help express that vision in a different way. Because more than likely, that consultant, that coach, that facilitator, they have experience with being a 360 leader. They know how to talk to anybody at any level when it comes to professional or even personal development. So, you know, what John said is critical, and I just want to reinforce that a bit to say, don’t be afraid, because you know you’ve had a great experience with a facilitator before. Give your people that same experience so that they can glean, they can grow, and your company can come together even stronger.

John: And I love what you mentioned about tying them to the vision. Every service will have a consultation for you. There’s going to be at least one free consultation where you can pick their brain, you can see if it’s a good fit for your people, you can see if that’s a proper investment. And then spend the time beforehand. That was just such a good plug is spend the time beforehand to make sure it’s aligned with the reason you reached out to them in the first place, right? Because even though it’s a unique service, even though there’s some expertise, make sure that expertise and service is aligned with your goal, right? Your goal for the organization and goal as a leader. Mm-hmm 100% so when we’re talking about vision and we talked a lot about being able to see a to be being able to see the end goal, right and Whenever we talk about a vision Tony, what do you think would be the first step in one? developing your own vision as a leader and to like really connecting that to your people in a powerful way and

Tony: I mean, developing your own vision as a leader is something that, it’s so many ways to construct your own vision, right? You can just write it down, make it plain. You can even visualize, you can maybe come up with a perfect scenario of what you want things to look like. I learned something from Dr. Dennis Kimbrough in Atlanta. He said that you want to have different quadrants. You want to have what’s the best outcome, what’s the worst outcome, what’s likely to come, and what am I willing to do, what’s the worst I’m willing to tolerate to get to my end result. So I’ll say it again, what’s the best outcome, what’s the worst outcome, what’s the likely outcome, and what’s the worst I’m willing to tolerate to get my vision across. And, you know, when you think about those four different elements of vision setting, that helps you put it in perspective. And then you can kind of land somewhere in the middle around likely and what’s the worst, you know, possible sitting I’m willing to do. So what’s the worst scenario? How long am I willing to wait in that? And I mean, you don’t want to necessarily tell your team that exact vision if you’re trying to level set and come across to them with that. But I would say be realistic with your people. when it comes to transferring that vision to other people. You want to be realistic. Another thing is you want to have clarity as well. You want to be very clear with the people so that they can understand. There’s nothing worse than working with or for a leader. They can’t really clearly express what they want. They can’t really clearly express what they are actually trying to create. You know, Steve Jobs, he was a visionary and he was really good at expressing what he wanted. even if it was to the lack of a benefit to the rest of the company, he stuck to his vision, he made it clear, and he built what he wanted to build, and he stood on that hill. And so for us as leaders in other spaces as well, we want to make sure that exactly what we want to happen happens in a way where we can clearly say, this is what we want our company to stand for, this is what we want our company to become. If you’re ambiguous in your ability to explain and express what your vision is to people, they will not follow you because they can’t understand it. Even if your vision is perfect, if it’s perfect to you, But nobody understands it, then it is not a perfect vision. You want to make it simple. You want to make it bite size. You want to have an elementary version of your vision so people at any level can always see, oh, this is what this person is trying to create. Oh, I can get behind that. And make it fun. Put your passion into your vision, but make it fun. Be willing to tell stories. Be willing to tell people why. Especially if the company is not your specific company. If you’re working for a company and you have a vision as a leader, Let people know why you have that vision for that company or what’s your story? How did you go from the beginning of your career to where you are now? Make people be able to connect with you so that they can have purpose in their own life and in their own role so they can buy into your vision for the long haul, for sure. That’s some of the things I would definitely say when it comes to vision setting, for sure.

John: Yeah, that honestly, man, I have nothing to add. That was that was great. And for all you present professionals out there, leaders to be leaders, take note of that. And the one thing I just want to point out and double down on is keep it simple. Like, let it be able to connect with everyone in your organization. And I think the key to that is simplicity. And you know, when we talk about developing a vision, it sounds kind of grandiose, but it’s The best thing is to distill it down, distill it down more and more, right? So I think that’s just essential to running a team, running a business, is being like, what do we stand for? What’s our why? What’s my why? How did I get there? And now, how do you connect with it? Who wants to come with me? And once you get there, once you start seeing that vision come to fruition, celebrate it. Each step along the way, look for things to celebrate. Look for things to praise. Look for people to reward. And I love even what you said about make it fun. And you even said that about the vision, what I’m saying, make the process fun. Right? Let’s get there. Yes, take ownership of failures, take ownership of learning experiences, and shift. Right? And then when you make a shift to something that succeeds, celebrate it. And I think that that’s really the best way to close out this episode is celebrate. Celebrate yourself. Celebrate the fact that you’re taking this time out of your day to learn something new, to shift your leadership strategies, to develop yourself as a leader, as a professional, wherever you are in your career. Take that time. That goes for your leadership, that goes for your employees, your business, and most of all, yourself. Take the time to celebrate and reward yourself.

Tony: Man, you said it best. And you know, before we close, I just want to send a plug out there for fun. Man, let’s have fun in everything we do. It’s got to be fun. We take the fun out of life every day when we go to work and we make work just work. Show up, have fun, transfer that fun energy to people. Work can be fun. Work should be fun. Building organizations should be fun. I know it’s a lot on the line as a leader. It’s like, hey, it’s It’s hard to have fun when you got to pay people and you got to do all these things, but have fun. Because if you can transfer that fun energy, people are going to want to work for you. They’re going to want to stay. They’re going to want to show up to work. If you’re having trouble getting people to come into the office, make it fun. They’re going to come into the office if it’s fun. get you some food trucks, get you some snow cone trucks, do something fun and then gather people and let them know that you care for them and that you mean what you say. Make it fun.

John: I love that. I love that, man. Well, have fun, everyone. Thank you guys so much for showing up. We really appreciate having you guys as listeners. The present professional community has been building and building. We appreciate you listening. We appreciate you rating and reviewing us anywhere that you get your podcast. You can look for more information at the presentprofessionalpodcast.com. You can connect with us directly. And if you’d like to have us or the rest of the folks at the company come into your organization to help with leadership development, to help with some of this team coaching mentality, some of these surveys, we’d love to help you out. So feel free to connect with us at the website there. You can schedule a free consultation or anything, and we’d love to hear more from you guys. So with that being said, have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you for listening. Take care