John Marshall (00:32)

Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today I have a special guest with us. I’m joined by Alan Derek Utley, an HR executive, speaker, and founder of Culture Aid Advisory. Alan has spent more than 25 years in HR and leadership development, and unlike many voices reflecting on corporate life from the outside, he’s still in the work every day.

His work explores the hidden pressures that cause good, well-intentioned leaders to fall into what he calls accidental or microtoxicity, and the everyday habit, the everyday grace habits that can move people and cultures in a healthier direction. Alan, welcome to the show.

Alan Derek Utley (01:23)

Thanks, John It’s a pleasure to be on. I remember our last conversation and just I I could have chatted with you for hours and I was look really looking forward to getting to do it again today. So thanks for having me. I’m ready to dive in. Where do you wanna go? Where do you wanna go first?

John Marshall (01:36)

Beautiful.

Beautiful. Well, before we before we just dive in, I’d love for the listeners to understand a little bit more about if there’s anything beyond the introduction that would be helpful for them to know. So take us through what’s gotten you to this point in your career and what made you start speaking about what you’re so passionate about today.

Alan Derek Utley (02:01)

Well, I like to start

At the beginning of getting involved in human resources, because that is sort of what got me to where I am today. But it it’s a it’s a combination of really interesting factors. I went to college to study sales and marketing because I was gonna be in sales. I really liked watching commercials. I just thought it was fascinating how someone could watch something for 30 seconds and then go buy it. Something they didn’t even know they needed, something they didn’t even

Even know they existed, and I just thought there was something cool about the psychology of that, and so I wanted to do that in some way and be a part of that in some way. So I followed a girl to school because I actually had no path, I didn’t know what I was doing. I never even checked out any schools, and I don’t recommend that. so I kind of just lucked into having a really great person that I followed, and she went to a great school. I ended up there, and I’ll never forget I had already started my my studies in the business school and sales and marketing, and one day I was back.

Home with her, and we were I still remember it vividly. I was sitting at the kitchen table, and it’s a kitchen table that I still sit in today. And my girlfriend’s dad at the time said, you know, this sales and marketing thing is interesting, but I I think you should check out human resources. And he was working for this very corporate organization, he was very high-level executive, and he had positive experiences with his HR people, and that’s why he said that.

to me. He just I think he made a connection what he knew about me with the people he worked with and he just seemed I had no idea what that was. People still today don’t know what human resources really is. It’s not like being an astronaut or a lawyer, right? Go to career day and the HR guy walks up. Like they don’t like there’s no concept of what that means. So I said sure because I wanted to please him because I was intending to marry his daughter someday. And I think I already gave it away that I did. That worked out.

And we’ve been

John Marshall (04:03)

Right.

Alan Derek Utley (04:03)

together We’ve been together a long time now and I still remind him of that. anyway, so I went and I studied human resources. I didn’t give up on sales and marketing, I studied that too.

And then I graduated and I got my very first job doing neither of those things, as as happens to a lot of people who get a degree. In one thing, they end up in somewhere something else completely. And I I absolutely did not enjoy the job that I had. I did not enjoy the culture. But what it did do was it introduced me to a leadership development program, the concept, the idea of leadership development.

Because what they were doing is they were they were hiring people right out of college to go work for this company and their plan was six months rotation, a 12 year, sorry, a tw a a full twelve twelve month rotation. They would eventually put you through every department of that organization and prepare you to be shipped off to go lead one of their properties or one of their areas, part of their business. And

John Marshall (05:10)

Hm.

Alan Derek Utley (05:11)

they were making future presidents basically of of their different organizations.

And I was all in. I thought that was pretty cool. But there was something about the culture, the people, the environment that didn’t connect for me. The work itself was not something I was necessarily passionate about. So I decided to leave that organization. But I wait I decided, and this is advice for anybody, I waited a whole year before making my exit because I realized I needed to develop a resume and I couldn’t just show that I was leaving after three months, even though I wanted to. So I waited a year.

I started applying, trying to get a sales and marketing job somewhere, and I couldn’t, couldn’t find a single thing anywhere. And then my wife said, Hey, so there was this other job that I was offered when we were graduating from college. So she got offered a human resources job, even though she had no degree in human resources.

John Marshall (06:04)

Hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (06:05)

And she said, I declined that job because she went a different path. But hey, they just called me because they were looking up past candidates, they were trying to, you know, they wondered maybe.

If

I would be interested, and she said, I told them I’m not, but my husband’s looking and he actually has an HR degree. Are you seeing a trend here? So my wife made a lot of things happen for me. Yeah, followed her to college. Her

John Marshall (06:25)

Yeah. Thank thank you. Thank you to your wife.

Alan Derek Utley (06:31)

dad gave some advice on a major, and then she got me my first job in HR. And John, I hated it. I did not like

Human resources. I was not interested in sitting at a desk and processing benefits, answering questions about leaves and time cards and all those things. Disliked it very much. I disliked it so much that I was doing anything but the actual job they had hired me to do.

So I was up moving around, making friends with other departments, learning what other people do, making up my own projects. And that

John Marshall (07:06)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (07:06)

started leading to coaching and more.

stern coaching and you know, the what happens to people, right? The corrective actions, the performance improvement plans, the but you’re probably not a good fit for us. And I was once again making my exit, thinking I’m finally gonna go into sales and marketing. And then something happened that changed all of that. I had a leader from another department, same company, still within HR,

John Marshall (07:34)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (07:35)

come to me and she said, We want you to come help us out. Which I thought was odd because I was sort of a misfit.

not performing, not doing well, but she was willing to give me a shot

John Marshall (07:46)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (07:47)

in her department. And what previously felt like being under a dark cloud every day, you know, th that that moment where you’re driving to work and you’re looking around and you’re like, what am I doing? Why? Why is this my

John Marshall (07:58)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (08:00)

life? I don’t like my job. Wha w what what am I gonna do? Lay laying in bed at night,

John Marshall (08:04)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (08:05)

staring at the ceiling, just being completely depressed and unhappy about your career choices

John Marshall (08:09)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (08:10)

so early on.

All that went away. Because this job that she had me doing was the exact same things I was doing that made me bad at the other job. It was moving around, making connections, finding projects to complete. She put me in recruiting.

That was the other sort of under the HR umbrella job that suddenly so what she did, and I thank her for this, she she recognized that what was making me a misfit over here would would make me a fit over here. I was misfit, basically. And that really changed everything, changed my trajectory completely. And the recruiting then very quickly turned into hey, can you go new do new hire orientation? Because what I haven’t shared with you, I think I may have told you.

this before, but I growing up I did a lot of theater. I was on stage constantly and so I had a comfort with being in front of people. So they connected that and it made me do new eye orientation. And so suddenly I started falling in love with the work.

And it

John Marshall (09:19)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (09:19)

it was it was I was doing things that I was naturally good at. There was a connection for me and I was finding ways to start adding value. And I still left that organization because I was there for three years and I got off on the wrong foot and so I was never gonna be someone who could develop long term, or at least I didn’t think I was. But I had at least found my

John Marshall (09:40)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (09:41)

way and then I got in with another organization and I’m gonna I’m you know, long story short, I started really

Finding my way. And I took my skills in recruiting and in training, started doing more general employee relations kinds of work, avoiding benefits and leaves and time cards, but you know, that’s still a part of the job, and I still have to do that, and they’ve learned how to do that. but

John Marshall (10:05)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (10:05)

I you started growing and progressing and becoming an HR manager, becoming an HR director, and then I got to connect the very first job I ever had, and I finally got to turn it into something of value. It was a company.

That I didn’t like, right? A culture that it wasn’t a fit for me, but I understood and learned how to do leadership development by being a part of a leadership development program. I then got to create my own leadership development program for this new organization that was going through multiple layers of acquisitions and mergers and all these changes, and I got to help create the strategy. So I was connecting all the things that I was good at, the things that I loved, the things that that I felt like I could add value in. And I even started teaching a a leadership course at

At the University of Texas, San Antonio, around that time too, because I had also gone back to get my master’s degree and was finally figuring this all out. Finally understood why my father-in-law suggested HR for me.

John Marshall (11:01)

Hmm. Wow.

Alan Derek Utley (11:03)

So then how do you get to what I’m doing today?

All along the way, so I I’ve been in I b I’ve been in human resources now for over twenty five years. And there’s been this common thread of things that I’ve had to be involved in and and experience. And it’s it’s the darker side of working inside organizations. It’s the stuff, it’s it’s kind of why HR exists really in the beginning. It’s it it’s the experiences that the employees have that make them feel

undervalued, make them feel that eventually leave them disengaged and are the things that com become the complaints, that become the investigations, the things that I have to get involved in. And you know, I haven’t mentioned that yet, but that’s a huge part of the work that I have to do. And I spend a ton of time having conversations with people trying to understand the conditions that are making them feel like they’re being mistreated, that they’re being discriminated against, or that they’re being

Unfavored because someone else is a favorite, that that are keeping them from being developed, keeping them from getting the pay that they think they’ve earned, you know, all those things. And there was a point when I just I found myself saying, There’s got to be a better way. And I started standing up and saying, guys, let’s just let’s just all get along. But but even more simply,

John Marshall (12:30)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (12:32)

everybody just be nice.

Just be nice. And and at some point in my career I also gained the nickname Mr. Nice Guy. I hope you can tell why. I mean I’m nice, right? I try

John Marshall (12:44)

Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (12:44)

I I I shouldn’t call myself that. I shouldn’t say that about myself, but I feel like, you know, that’s that’s the vibe that I give off that I’m nice. which which surprises some people because when I can have a tough conversation, I’m I’m I can have a tough conversation, right? I’m I’m capable of that. But

I started realizing that was super naive, super Pollyanish, super unrealistic. And despite that, I was still standing up and trying to find a way to articulate there’s gotta be a better way. and along the lines, I too became the quote victim of what we’re gonna call toxic workplaces.

I’ve I’ve had my own leaders who have had me squarely in their own target who have said things that anybody would interpret as a threat to their job, a threat to their work that they do, anything that would make them feel unsafe, right? And and there’s also those those early experiences that we all have where a leader will make you feel like whatever’s going on in your life, you can’t bring it to work. Whatever’s going on outside

John Marshall (13:53)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (13:55)

needs to be left outside.

you know, leave it

John Marshall (13:57)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (13:58)

at the door kind of mentality. So those are the things that start deeply getting deeply ingrained in you. And you know, it’s the you know, you w when you start as an hourly associate or hourly employee, you know, you gotta be here at six. And if you’re not here at six, you’re in trouble. And you can’t stay past five without getting approval for overtime and you stay past five, you’re in trouble. you can’t have a personal life, so don’t take any personal calls and if you do, you’re in trouble. You know, these these are things that all things that I did and all things that that

Also, and by the way, you work in human resources, you’re not allowed to make friends with coworkers. And and I was. I was making friends with coworkers, and I got quickly told, stop doing those things. So I’m starting to learn some of these behaviors myself, and I’m starting to turn into sort of a robot at some point in my career too. And was even called a robot a few times by a few

John Marshall (14:47)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (14:48)

different people and

Those are the kinds of moments that make you stop and pay attention and start to really think about what you’re doing and the kind of environment you’re helping to contribute to. So

John Marshall (14:59)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (15:00)

all all of that eventually got to a point where I’m saying there’s gotta be a better way. I learned some of these bad habits, I see the bad habits, there’s gotta be a solution. And and there was an experience, it and I’ll tee this up and then you tell me if you want to go here now or or maybe later. But I had exper I had an experience, I had two very

Very significant experiences that put me squarely in the target of toxicity that made me very afraid for my

John Marshall (15:28)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (15:28)

job. And then there was a probably a year later an experience that showed me, whoa, there there really is a different way. There is another way. And it took sent me on a journey of sort of unpacking and being able to explain what that is. All of that has become

the body of work that I focus on today and and why I do this kind of work. And and I’ll here’s the last thing to I I think to actually answer one of your original questions, which was why am I why am I straddling both worlds today? Why you know I I’m working still full time as as an HR person, as an HR director with an organization, and I’m also pursuing this other work. And it and it’s less about pursuing this work and more about trying to create a movement and change culture, which

is a huge task. It’s a huge ask. But I feel like somebody’s gotta start somewhere. And and that’s the work that I’m trying to do. And I’m still doing both today because I can. I have I’m just I’m able

John Marshall (16:32)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (16:33)

to make the time because I’ve got leaders in an organization that I work with that that values me as an individual who has other pursuits and gives me the support and the and the time to be able to do those things while still doing my job. because I still do my job.

John Marshall (16:49)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (16:51)

but it also keeps me fresh, right? Like I could give you five examples from this last week of things that tie directly to the work and it reminds me every day of why this work is so important and it gives me opportunities to deliver that message to people I work with every day and add value to what they’re doing and then helps me take that message to you and to other organizations. So there you go. That’s the longest that I’ve ever talked in one setting, so there you go. Where do you want to go from there?

Beautiful.

John Marshall (17:21)

Welcome to Alan’s TED Talk.

Wow, well

I heard a lot in your story and one thing that really stood out was the person that took you from a misfit to the right fit. And

Alan Derek Utley (17:42)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (17:44)

that was something I just wanted to pause and highlight of like

Within Alan’s story, like you can see how

Alan Derek Utley (17:54)

Significant.

John Marshall (17:55)

much that changed the trajectory of his career. Right? Like, and I’m I’m speaking directly to you listeners who are in the seat to

Alan Derek Utley (17:58)

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John Marshall (18:09)

find the right fit for people and for people that feel like they are misfits right now.

is like that there is a place for you and it’s like finding those things that you are naturally doing that were not a fit for the role that you were

in and like the foresight that that person had to see those things will actually be useful here. I just didn’t want to glaze over that moment because I think that’s

Alan Derek Utley (18:42)

Yeah.

John Marshall (18:42)

just a really important concept for people to understand.

And how they can contribute to the the careers of the young people around them. And well, not even just the young people, but the careers of the misfits around them. So one, thank you for bringing that up, because I think that’s really, really important. And then

There’s this thread of where you’ve experienced all of these things from the victim side of things, but also from the observer and investigator point of view. Where you are supporting people who are experiencing those different things that are making them feel disengaged.

Right, making them feel uncomfortable, segregated against, discriminated, right? However you want to to bucket all of the different things that happen. But I’m really interested in the way you talk about toxicity when it comes to like accidental toxicity, right? And

‘Cause I think this like really invites the because I find when I’m even when I’m working with my clients, right, we we vilify the parts of ourselves that we actually need to integrate the most. So it’s a lot of times I’ll have clients that say

Right. I never want to be like them. They’re so just like abrasive and never w and the that same client is usually the person that would the biggest growth edge is being more assertive. But they

Alan Derek Utley (20:26)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (20:27)

vilify being assertive with being an asshole. Right.

Alan Derek Utley (20:32)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (20:33)

So but but I love the way that you are framing it

when it comes to accidental toxicity, because I don’t think a lot of people mean to be toxic. Like I don’t think a lot of like yes, there are certainly sociopaths in the w I probably in every workplace, right? But but I think that’s why I I hope, I would bet that that’s the vast minority, right? But I think

the majority fall into this place of like like you started to experience where you were saying, I started falling into it like a robot. Like I was a product of my environment that created this toxic behavior to essentially assimilate to my environment. So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about what you mean when you say accidental toxicity or these micro toxic moments.

Alan Derek Utley (21:34)

Well. And just for the record, I still do it. Because it’s I still do some of these things because it’s just human nature. let me stop let me start with broad strokes and then we’ll get into some of those micro toxic examples and I’ll tell you why. I’m gonna start with why I think this happens. We somehow have forced a choice.

i in terms of how we lead. And i it’s two ends of the same spectrum and they are extreme. One choice is you have to be able to hold people accountable. The other choice is will you just accept whatever happens.

Some people could call that avoidance, right? It you’re you’re either holding

John Marshall (22:23)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (22:24)

everybody accountable or you’re or you’re or you’re not. And then you’re just letting people do whatever they want. And so then what happens when we choose accountability? number one, not everybody’s good at that, right? It’s not their their instinct, it’s not their natural state, it’s not mine. well actually until I became a parent, I didn’t think it was, but I think something happens to

John Marshall (22:45)

Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (22:46)

you. It becomes different when you become a parent. I’ve learned so much from

We could do a whole other podcast on that.

John Marshall (22:52)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (22:53)

But what happens when you’re when you hold people accountable, then you you create systems of fear. You create systems that are driven by power. You create systems that make people feel like they have to be perfect. You create systems

John Marshall (23:08)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (23:08)

that allow pressure to be the driver of motivation. And people will do and act and and complete tasks simply to avoid accountability. We’ve turned accountability into a

A bad word. And it’s

John Marshall (23:25)

Hm.

Alan Derek Utley (23:25)

that’s what creates that those that that feeling of you know you call your boss toxic because they’re checking in on you. You know, they give you a deadline. Here’s a microtoxic example, John. I give you a deadline of Friday, right? I tell you what needs to get done, and then on Wednesday I say, How are you doing?

And it seems like like if you look at it through through my lens as the leader, I’m just making sure the work gets done and I’m checking in with you to see if you have any questions. But what you’re hearing is he doesn’t trust me. He you then slap a label on me of a micromanager.

And then there’s the opposite end, which is it acceptance, which is you know over-empowerments, over-delegation, which I have also done, by the way. I’ve been on every side of the spectrum. and then what you’re get like people are pointing at me as the person who cannot hold people accountable. And people are running over me. And I c and I what am I l I’m losing, I’m losing high quality, I’m losing high performance, I’m l you know, and we’re as a business, we’re suffering because I can’t get my people to

produce. So we’re we’re saying

John Marshall (24:35)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (24:36)

you can be only one or the other. And what happens is on either end of that spectrum, we’re we’re stifling our humanity. We’re stifling our capacity. Because if if I’m just letting you be, then I’m not pushing you enough to discover what you’re capable of.

And if I am putting my finger on you constantly, then I’m stifling your ability to take risks. I’m stifling your ability to think, to solve, to experiment.

John Marshall (25:04)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (25:05)

And so we find ourselves in one of these two spots because that’s the system that we’ve created. And then people start calling us toxic. They start calling us bullies. And yeah. Go.

John Marshall (25:15)

Hmm. Well, it just to interject real

quick, the when so when we have the two ends of the spectrum, just so I’m understanding you correctly, we got accountability on one end, acceptance on the other end, right? Which I guess it acceptance right now is a little synonymous with like autonomy or freedom, and then accountability around

Alan Derek Utley (25:39)

Yeah. Or or avoidance.

John Marshall (25:41)

Right, yeah, or or or avoidance. Interesting. ‘Cause you know, I always say that, you know, autonomy without accountability is chaos, right? Which I feel like is the middle of the spectrum that we’re that we’re talking about here. But I’m I’m curious like how

Is it just a genetic disposition? Like how do people fall towards one way or the other in different systems? I guess like what are the variables that cause people to fall towards accountability or or acceptance?

Alan Derek Utley (26:14)

Well, I don’t have a scientific answer to that because I’m not that’s not my space, but I I’ll give you a twenty five years informed exper answer. I think it yeah, that’s that’s all I got. I think

John Marshall (26:22)

Anecdotal’s fine for me. Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (26:26)

it is how we are it it is our natural talents. I mean if we go back to me being a misfit, right? It it it it was it was it was putting me into a role that did not speak to my strengths and my talents and my abilities, or I just hadn’t discovered how to use my talents in that role. And so I do

Think, you know, if if you take someone’s Clifton Strengths, for example, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that or Strengths Finder, you’ll have people who show up with command as their number one strength. And that’s going to be someone

John Marshall (26:54)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (26:55)

who I know is not going to have a hard time holding me accountable. And then you might have somebody

John Marshall (26:59)

Got it.

Alan Derek Utley (27:00)

who has adaptability as their number one strength. And they’re going to say, It’s cool, we’ll go with the flow. And so those are extremes, right? But I do think it’s it

John Marshall (27:09)

Okay.

Alan Derek Utley (27:10)

probably prov serves as an answer to your question. I think some of it

It could just be how are what’s in our DNA and the experiences that formed us before we got into the workplace. Maybe. What do you think?

John Marshall (27:19)

Mm. So kind of our

natural our natural disposition as opposed to the systems that we’re in. Well, I guess I guess you’re right. It’s kind of nature versus nurture in a way.

Can the system nurture you toward a more command and control way? Like if it’s, you know, a la a company made up of entire former military, you’re probably leading leaning more towards the accountability end of the spectrum.

Alan Derek Utley (27:49)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (27:50)

But it’s

But I’m s it’s like I’m seeing the positives with like the accountability side. Like it’s

Alan Derek Utley (27:59)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (28:00)

like we need to be able to trust that people will follow through with their commitments, right? And when I look at when I look at accountability, I always try to

like decouple it from the consequences, right? It’s like through accountability, we’re actually trying to make better decisions. So when we’re held ourselves accountable to something, we should learn, did we were we not accurate with the amount of effort this would take? Were we not accurate about the time? Were we not accurate about the resources that you needed to be successful? I think accountability is associated with like what does the process need? What do you need to be successful? But if

If we don’t set specific accountability measures, we can’t discover that.

Alan Derek Utley (28:50)

Okay, but John, you you just modeled something that

sorry, I interru let me let you finish that, because I I I gotta jump when you’re ready.

John Marshall (28:57)

Yep, for sure. I was th I was thinking the but the other side when it comes to like acceptance, I’m I’m struggling to find the like the same positives with with acceptance because I keep landing at, you know, like acceptance and avoidance I feel are a little bit different words, right? And

And then or even autonomy or or freedom. Like I feel like it’s good to be able to provide employees autonomy, but but when it comes to like of avoiding, like avoiding the tough conversation, avoiding setting the deadline, like that’s not a that’s not a good thing. So I guess like I immediately see the need for accountability, but when it comes to like the word acceptance, I’m struggling there.

Alan Derek Utley (29:47)

Okay. And maybe that’s how you’re genetically predisposed. Maybe you’re more

John Marshall (29:51)

Maybe.

Alan Derek Utley (29:53)

On the accountability

John Marshall (29:53)

Maybe.

Alan Derek Utley (29:54)

side. Cause I would tell you the the acceptance side feels more natural for me. And so here’s here’s what I here let me offer this as an example of the value of the acceptance.

John Marshall (30:05)

Yes.

Alan Derek Utley (30:06)

It’s the employee who delivers the big presentation, right? They they they planned it for weeks, they memorized it, and they walked in there, and halfway through they forgot their what they were gonna say and they their notes got all right. It’s it’s a very textbook.

Example, you’ll see it in the movies, right? As their leader, my default is not gonna be you screwed this up, and I’m gonna have to hold you accountable. It’s gonna be, you know what, it’s okay because I want them to feel okay in that moment. They’re already feeling

John Marshall (30:38)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (30:39)

embarrassed, they’re already feeling all the feelings, and I want to take those feelings away. And so I’m gonna say, It’s okay.

John Marshall (30:48)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (30:49)

Does that resonate at all?

John Marshall (30:52)

It it does when you’re we’re talking about like acceptance of the human being, right? Like I see

Alan Derek Utley (30:57)

Yeah, okay.

John Marshall (30:58)

you I see you and your capacity for mistakes as we all have. I see that as a as a you know, as a deeply human form of acceptance. But there’s a difference between like acceptance and tolerating mediocrity, like when it comes to what we want to accomplish here together.

So I think there’s like there’s got to be a I mean we keep coming back to balance, right? It’s like

Alan Derek Utley (31:27)

That’s it.

John Marshall (31:28)

when do we when do we understand that like the employee we keep putting in front of everyone to deliver these presentations maybe is not a good fit. Right? Because

Alan Derek Utley (31:39)

Yeah. Right.

John Marshall (31:41)

it’s like I can see I can see a company spiraling downward.

Right, saying like, you know, it’s okay. Everybody makes mistakes. Like we’ll get the next we’ll get the next million dollar deal that will, you know, that’ll keep us afloat. But then it’s like we’re too far,

Alan Derek Utley (32:01)

No

John Marshall (32:02)

we’re too far at the end of that spectrum. Like maybe we need maybe we need another person giving giving the presentations. Right? But but I think that comes

Alan Derek Utley (32:07)

I I would lose my job as the leader in that moment. Yeah.

John Marshall (32:12)

down to again the the the fit, right? The fit in some like

folks are better fit for roles than than others, right? But that doesn’t mean that we make that person feel less human, right? It’s I th so I think there’s a threshold for acceptance where it’s like, I see you. I see that you make mistakes. I see that this happened and how can I support you to ensure that you’re prepared next time, right?

Alan Derek Utley (32:44)

But see this isn’t fair because you are already somebody who gets it.

John Marshall (32:50)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (32:50)

And so y you’re modeling what we’re trying to teach the average workplace. I’ve

John Marshall (32:57)

Thank you. Let me yeah, let me let me take a step back.

Alan Derek Utley (33:00)

Yeah.

You’re already there, John. And you know, so so here’s the example. What what I was trying to jump on earlier is you’re modeling what what that balance is and what I believe is the solution is the antidote to the toxic workplaces. And and I by the way, I’ve I’ve shifted away from from really I mean, I’m I still wanna I still wanna heal the toxic workplaces, right? I I want that

John Marshall (33:28)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (33:28)

to happen.

But I’m getting to this point because I’m thinking of it as accidental. I don’t think people wake up every day and intend to be toxic. It’s the conditions that exist in our workplaces that cause that. We are working from a place of survival mode. And it’s in what it is, I’ve I finally figured it out. It’s it’s hidden pressure. It’s the pressure that’s hiding in every corner and crack and crevice of the building, virtual or literal, that we’re pretending is not there.

And and we’re operating, trying to pr go please go. What were we gonna say?

John Marshall (34:06)

No, no, no. This you just unlock something with that with that word, right? I agree. Hidden hidden pressure. The pressure that’s unspoken. yes. Please continue to

Alan Derek Utley (34:20)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (34:23)

elaborate on on hidden pressure.

Alan Derek Utley (34:25)

Yeah, so here’s the example, and this is a recent one, and it’s one that I’ve seen play out over and over and over again. It’s the i in and I keep talking about labels. because the the labels are what make it easy. They they become our shorthand, the micromanager, right, as as a man as as a label for a leader, but there’s also the label that we give employees. You hear labels like they’re entitled, they’re not a team player.

They are negative. And that’s a that’s a very common one. That there’s a negative employee and they’re being disruptive. And so what the manager’s doing, and and I don’t fault them, they don’t have these skills. They’re not equipped to handle this because they’re getting pressure to solve. They’re getting pressure to perform. And so they’re taking that pressure, they’re balling it up, and they’re passing it to the next person. And they don’t realize that they’re catching it. They don’t realize it’s being thrown at them. But

The the manager will say, Well, that person’s just being so negative. And what they’re not doing is they’re not looking behind that label to what’s causing the behavior that they are calling disruptive. And so what you were modeling

John Marshall (35:31)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (35:32)

was constructive curiosity. We don’t need constructive criticism. We need constructive curiosity. I don’t need the manager to go and say, You’re being negative.

‘Cause we we teach that, right? We teach, be honest, be direct, tell what what’s going on, but that’s the wrong thing to teach. We need to teach

John Marshall (35:53)

Yeah. Your being negative is not

helpful. Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (35:55)

is not helpful. You all you’ve done is you’ve put them in a box and you’ve made them feel even worse. And then eventually it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because everything that they do, you’re you’ve created a narrative, and everything they do is just the pressure is mounting. They’re gonna get negative because they’re being told they’re negative. But if we paused and we said, you know what?

I’m noticing something from you that is just it it feels negative. And I mean, like you you said this, you said that, you did this. You know, speak the behaviors that you see that you’re absolutely actually observable, and then you say, What’s up? What’s going on? How can I help you? What questions do you have? Where are you struggling? What are you running into? What can I do?

That’s what we just don’t teach people well enough. And it’s it’s your average frontline supervisor, your manager who was thrust into the role. This is a tale as old as time, right? They were because they were good at the job, so they suddenly had to manage people,

John Marshall (36:59)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:00)

and no one ever taught them to manage people. And then they finally did teach them to manage people, but they taught them to manage processes. They never

John Marshall (37:07)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:08)

taught them to manage humans.

They never said, you know, if someone is being negative, pause, have a conversation, find out what’s up, and figure out how you can help them. And you’ve got time to do that, by the way. I’m okay with you

John Marshall (37:22)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:22)

spending the time doing that. That is the middle. Because you can go into that conversation and and you can say what you’re doing is.

Is it’s actually creating disruption. You can say that. It’s creating disruption. And let me tell you how it’s creating disruption. But the questions you’re asking are are good questions. I want to teach you a way to ask those questions in a way that are least disruptive. I want you to come to my

John Marshall (37:48)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:48)

office at you know, every day at two o’clock, I’m gonna be available to you. If you got questions, let’s talk through those. But I need you, I’m gonna answer your questions, but I need you when you show up to your job to demonstrate positive behaviors.

I’m not gonna say be positive, because you can’t force that. But you can say,

John Marshall (38:08)

Mm-mm.

Alan Derek Utley (38:09)

I need you to demonstrate positive, helpful, productive behaviors with the team, and here’s what that looks like. So you can so you can hold someone accountable, you can accept them for being a human being, and you can still raise the game.

John Marshall (38:23)

There we go. Now I’m satisfied.

Alan Derek Utley (38:24)

I mean that’s okay, good. Okay.

And and I got a word for that. And th the word is grace.

John Marshall (38:36)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (38:38)

And

like th it is the grace is the emotional heartbeat of all the work that I do. That is the word that once upon a time I discovered

And realized, I mean, like it described a moment that I had with a leader who gave me the space to be imperfect, who gave me the space to realize that what was going on was not good. And she allowed me to be a human being in that moment, but then she also allowed me to turn that moment into something that we could grow from. We continued to grow from. And so my definition of grace is not just let it go.

It’s permission to be human and it’s an invitation to continue to be better.

John Marshall (39:23)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (39:23)

‘Cause we

are all imperfect, and that’s okay. So grace is what we need to teach people. And once upon a time, somebody put integrity on core values. What the heck was that? Somebody put respect, they put trust, you know, they put these abstract concepts on core values, and now they show up everywhere. Now it’s time that we put grace on the core values, because that’s what you need to actually do all those things. And we

John Marshall (39:51)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (39:52)

need to teach people how to do it.

John Marshall (40:43)

Okay, there’s there’s a lot there.

Where I’m feeling pulled to go is these when we talk about pressure, right? I don’t want to glance over some of the pressures that exist, right? And and I feel like a lot of them are, you know

almost understood, right? That this is this is a priority. We have to hit we have to hit this number. We have to get this out by this date. We have to you know, or it’s like, you know, the investors weren’t happy, or the board is feeling like this is maybe not the wrong the right direction. Or you know, I don’t know. I mean, it’s like all of those things that are a little bit indirect are coming up for me.

as you know, as hidden pressures. I feel like the more I feel like the more direct and clear you are about like, you know, this specific thing is off. We need to go this direction, or this is the change that we need to have with the str to the strategy specifically,

Alan Derek Utley (41:52)

Yeah.

John Marshall (41:53)

you know, I feel like that is necessary pressure. and I’m just I’m just kind of spitballing here from what I’m hearing what I think hidden pressures could be. But

Where am I off the mark? What are some hidden pressures that listeners are probably facing right now that you experience, or I guess that are part of your work?

Alan Derek Utley (42:14)

Yeah.

No, that’s I mean, that is just such such a great question and it it is something that bears more exploration because we do need to get better at naming the hidden pressures because we can’t tackle them if we d if we can’t name them.

And a lot of it has gotta be it it’s the stuff that’s subconscious, it’s the things that we don’t say out loud. It’s the hard thing that you don’t say out loud. And and I’ll I’ll tell you a story that I think maybe could help explain it. It’s it’s when you have a family member in the hospital and you know as a human being where you’re supposed to be. It’s an easy answer. You should be with your family

John Marshall (42:57)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (42:58)

member who’s in the hospital.

But what starts to come up for every one of us who’s ever worked in corporate America or any job anywhere is if I don’t show up to work, I’m

I’m gonna start to be labeled as unreliable. if I don’t show up to work, it becomes an occurrence on my attendance policy. if I forget to even text that I’m coming into work, or if I text the wrong person, I’m gonna get a n a mark. if if I can’t be at work to complete this project, it’s not gonna get done, and then I’m gonna get in trouble and then we’re not gonna perform right. It’s this snowball, it’s this domino, and it becomes this thing that’s deeply rooted in each of us, and I still feel that

guilt today. When I’m not constantly working, when I’m not constantly doing something that moves the needle forward on the job that I’m supposed to do every day, there is this tremendous guilt. And I’m sure that a lot of that’s just me, but I think it is a lot of people. Those are the hidden pressures, the things that we don’t say out loud that drive us to make the wrong choice.

John Marshall (44:05)

Yeah, I went to like I went to the you know, upline pressures, market pressures and all of that, but

Alan Derek Utley (44:11)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (44:12)

you know, it’s actually the pressure to be who I think they want me to be in general.

Alan Derek Utley (44:19)

Yeah,

dang, yeah.

John Marshall (44:23)

is what I’m what I’m hearing. And and I think it goes in both both sides of what you just said, because the amount of people that that I

Alan Derek Utley (44:36)

Yeah.

John Marshall (44:36)

can think of that are saying, you know, I need to be there or I am thought of as this, I think there’s also

Alan Derek Utley (44:43)

Yes.

John Marshall (44:44)

the same amount and group of people that are like, I’m gonna show up anyway because it makes me look like this.

Alan Derek Utley (44:51)

Yes. Yes.

John Marshall (44:52)

Like

as as opposed to like the f like the fear side of things, like more of the more of like the the badge of honor kind of kind of thing. Like, yes, I have a family member in the hospital, but I’m gonna but I’m gonna fly to this meeting anyway because I’m someone that shows

Alan Derek Utley (45:09)

Yeah.

John Marshall (45:10)

up, because I’m someone that, you know, like prioritizes the business.

So it’s like I think there’s I think there like there’s people on both sides and I think both sides of that are toxic. Right.

Alan Derek Utley (45:24)

Yeah,

you’re right. You nailed it. ‘Cause we applaud grace under pressure. I which which makes

John Marshall (45:32)

Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (45:32)

us feel like you have to take on more and more and more pressure and that becomes toxic.

John Marshall (45:41)

Because so culturally so the so I guess where we’re going with this thought experiment is like both sides of them of that person, those people, need to are trying to be someone that they think other people want me to be, that they think I’m supposed to be or something. I think they think I’m supposed to be. Right.

Alan Derek Utley (46:06)

Yeah.

John Marshall (46:08)

So the the middle ground or the grace is whoa dude what what are you doing here? Like go back home. We’ll handle

Alan Derek Utley (46:16)

Yeah. huh.

John Marshall (46:18)

the meeting. Like we’re not tolerating we’re not tolerating this you know neglecting your personal life. Right.

Because I feel like that then sends the message to the other camp of folks that, whoa, like it’s a priority that I actually handle that so I can show up when I need to. So I think it’s like if you accept the like the behavior, if you accept the one side of the behavior where I am

you know, focusing on the business at all costs, then you’re sending the same message that supports the other side of, geez, in order to feel like I’m contributing, I need to show up. So it’s like you can’t even just say, well, there he is. Like I guess he values the business. Like you actually have to directly address that kind of behavior

the neglecting of the personal life to show the other side that it’s important. Am I am I on to something here? Okay, okay. Okay. This is fascinating.

Alan Derek Utley (47:17)

Yes. You’re nailing it, man. Is yeah, it it’s about yeah. And that’s those microtoxic

behaviors, right? It’s you you don’t realize you’re doing it, but you are modeling the wrong behavior and you are reinforcing it by doing it. I mean, it’s the manager who says, Hey, go on vacation, don’t check your email, and then the manager goes on vacation and is constantly checking their email. So which is it?

Right, w which which one are we actually gonna do here? You so if my manager is actually checking their email, then I’m gonna be checking my email when I go on vacation too. Because that’s what my manager is doing. It’s the model of and that’s you know, that’s a very low risk, low bar example, but it’s the kind of example. And then the inverse, like you just said, it’s it it’s the it’s the leader who on a call, and this was a real story, responded to somebody who was very, you know, lower level, higher.

Hierarchically, to this person who asked a question that was almost expressing a dissenting opinion to the direction that that business was going or that team was going in. And the leader’s response, after a brief pause, was: I need everybody to know you don’t have permission to disagree with me. And then he followed that up with: it’s a requirement.

that you disagree with me. So there was a moment of wait, where is he going with this? But in that moment, he modeled

John Marshall (48:45)

Love that.

Alan Derek Utley (48:47)

absolutely the right behavior. It cause ’cause the ex right the the expectation is back to your your thread.

The peer the person I’m supposed to be is just the good soldier who goes along with the direction no matter what. Even if I’m not sure about it, right? That’s the expectation. But what he did was say, it doesn’t matter your role, it doesn’t matter your title. You can ask questions, you can challenge, you can have an opinion you were allowed, and it’s okay. I’ll make it safe to do that.

John Marshall (49:16)

That’s a good one.

Alan Derek Utley (49:17)

That’s

the kind of race that we’re talking about. Yeah. Yeah. We’re trying to be somebody that people want us or think that we should be.

It is the so in my twenty-five years in HR, I I I can’t even count the number of leaders that I’ve seen step into a first-time leadership role or even a promotion, which becomes a first-time role, right? It’s you know, you go manager to director, VP, those things. There is this bizarre thing that happens where they become somebody different, and they become this person, they put on this suit of armor, they put on this veneer, this polish that you just know is fake.

Fake it till you make it is not helpful because you’re gonna break it. And the thing is, we know you’re faking it. We know that you don’t know everything about this job because you’re new in the job. Nobody ever knows everything about it. And so there I think, but but what’s happening is they believe I am now in charge, I’m now the manager, I have to know all, do all, be all, and never mess up. And because of that, they will make decisions, they will express opinions, they will do anything.

And then they will double down on it, even if it was wrong, because they can’t be wrong.

John Marshall (50:33)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (50:34)

And then they’re gonna flame out, and everyone is gonna fail as a result because they’re trying to reach this ideal of a perfect leader, a perfect performer, and that is a toxic chase. They say that practice makes perfect, but chasing perfection is a toxic practice.

John Marshall (50:55)

Yeah. It’s I mean, now I’m just like visualizing this hidden pressure just always to these these archetypes in our mind of who I need to be. Right? The leader that jumps into that role that says

Okay, I’m in this new I’m in this new level. Like I have to be at this level and be like everyone else and live up to these expectations. There’s no space for learning. I should be directing. But it’s like all of

Alan Derek Utley (51:22)

Yes, right.

John Marshall (51:23)

those shoulds, all of those shoulds are not grace, right? And grace

Alan Derek Utley (51:28)

Yeah.

John Marshall (51:29)

is whether it be a grace period, like literally to learn, to it’s like

Alan Derek Utley (51:33)

You got it. That’s exactly what it is. Yeah.

But it’s a grace period that never ends. It’s not a thirty minute grace period.

John Marshall (51:39)

Yeah, yeah.

But I mean, I think there’s a I think there’s again, I I’m I’m like the balance between the tolerating mediocrity and like moving forward and accomplishing our goal together, you know, I d I do now

I think you can always

Alan Derek Utley (52:00)

Okay.

John Marshall (52:01)

w bestow grace and be in a spa a state of grace, but it’s like w from a grace period of from a learning perspective, like you should get your feet under you within a role, right, to start meeting

Alan Derek Utley (52:18)

yeah.

John Marshall (52:18)

expectations by a certain point, but I don’t think you stop learning at that point.

Alan Derek Utley (52:26)

No, I agree.

John Marshall (52:26)

I think you

are contributing to the system in the way that the system needs.

Alan Derek Utley (52:32)

Yeah.

This is where people get confused. Grace does not lower the standard.

John Marshall (52:38)

There we go. okay. Now now I’m now I’m happy.

Alan Derek Utley (52:39)

Grace does not Okay. Grace does not lower the standard.

Again, it’s a it’s not letting it go.

John Marshall (52:46)

Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (52:47)

It’s not. I I I even had an employee once who said he messed up and we were talking about it. And he said, All right, I got it, boss, I got it. Give me some grace. And I said, I’ll give you grace, but we’re gonna talk about it. Like

John Marshall (53:00)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (53:00)

I I understand that it didn’t go the way it was supposed to go. Great. I don’t think you’re a bad person. You’re not stupid.

Because those are the things, those are the stories we tell ourselves. When we get in trouble, we do something wrong, suddenly we think everybody thinks that we’re bad at our jobs. We’re not. You just messed up. So let’s figure out what happened and let’s move forward. The the key is the pause and then getting curious. What you modeled earlier. Grace says,

John Marshall (53:24)

Mm. Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (53:27)

that didn’t go the way it supposed to go. It’s okay. Now let’s make it okayable.

Let’s move forward. Let’s figure out what happened and let’s make it better so this doesn’t happen again. And at some point, if you keep

John Marshall (53:40)

Yes.

Alan Derek Utley (53:40)

repeating the same problem, Grace says, I gotta find a new job for you. You’re not a bad person.

John Marshall (53:46)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (53:47)

This was just not the right job for you. You were a misfit. Let’s find you a better fit. And and Grace has boundaries.

John Marshall (53:52)

Yes.

Alan Derek Utley (53:53)

Grace has limits, man. It’s not just everybody gets whatever they want and they can mess up as much as they want. And you can’t be a bad person and be allowed to be a bad person. I’m gonna stop.

You I am my grace for myself is gonna set a limit. You cannot bully me, you cannot treat me that way. You know, that’s my grace that I’m giving myself in that moment. I I will not be treated like that, boss. Yeah. Sorry, I not you got me riled up here, man. This is

John Marshall (54:20)

Well this is what it this is what it’s all about, right? Because I mean this

is how this is how you fine tune your system, right? If it was if it was if it was something that like

couldn’t stand the test of questioning, then what what are you doing? But here you are speaking to all of the different facets of that grace can show up in and the systems that it can create within a team is kind of where I’m I’m interested now. Like I feel like we’ve we’ve pressure tested all of the things. Like we have we

Alan Derek Utley (54:55)

How does the

John Marshall (54:58)

we understand the hidden pressures. We understand that like grace is needed to facilitate these

conversations to get curious to get to a place where we can move forward together. So now we’re at this place where we can move forward together as a team. So like what within a team, like what changes in trust, psychological safety, and actually what changes

Alan Derek Utley (55:20)

Yeah, I’ll play.

John Marshall (55:23)

in performance when grace becomes habitual in a team?

Alan Derek Utley (55:28)

That is that is that’s what we’re trying to explore and experiment and discover. You know, gra Grace is new for me. I’ll I’ll tell I I won’t be able to give you any stats on it because I don’t have it yet, but what I envision is gonna happen is that the the ability for that team to perform at a higher level will be unlocked. Because it becomes a team that has the space to experiment.

It becomes a team that has the space to fail and have conversations about it and collaborate and and not feel like they’re gonna get written up. Man, is a human resources professional? I will tell you right now, I’m not a fan of corrective actions. And I know that’s gonna be an unfavorable opinion for a lot of my peers, but corrective actions are treated as discipline. And we’re adults, we don’t need to be disciplined.

Corrective actions should be what they were always intended to be. It’s it’s a way to correct the action. But instead it becomes, you know, first warning, second warning, third warning, and you’re out of here. And I do, you know, at some point someone is not good for the business and you need to find a safe, legal way to get them out. I get that. I get I get all that. But what you get is a team that has a a shorthand and is able to flow.

I think that’s the answer to your question. Is it’s a team that can flow together and do amazing things, unlock extraordinary performance, and achieve extraordinary results because they’re doing it every day. And it’s a team that knows how to play a different kind of card. You know, we all play the blame card, the shame card, the frame card, but these are teams that play the grace card and can pause and get curious and have conversations that make what they do.

Better.

John Marshall (57:26)

Mm.

I mean, what I’m hearing is it really comes down to creating more psychological safety. Like the more

Alan Derek Utley (57:36)

That’s it.

John Marshall (57:37)

people are willing to be themselves, contribute dissenting opinions, like engage in productive conflict, like gr that grace is an avenue for a psychologically safe environment within a team.

Alan Derek Utley (57:54)

It is. And I think to to really

you were going here I think already, but i what does this actually look like, right? Like it it I’ve had so many leaders who have said, Yes, we need more grace, but I also have the ones who say, No, no, not too much grace, right? It’s the same thing we’ve been talking about. But what did that actually look like in practice every day? What does a team that can operate through grace look like? And in the work that I’ve been trying to evolve is is to create actual tools that show how it shows up.

i there’s so many different kinds of scenarios, these these flashpoint moments every day that show up where the where the pressure shows up and you need to show up in a way that’s productive, grace fueled, not graceful, grace fueled, to make

John Marshall (58:46)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (58:47)

something better out of it.

And so y you know, take take the the conflict conversation where two people are butting heads and they’re disagreeing. I’m gonna ask you, how do you think grace can show up in that moment and get people out of a battle and into solutioning?

John Marshall (59:14)

take a step back. It’s like when you’re in in conflict, right, when you if you think of it literally, I’m putting my hand in front of my face for those of you that are listening. When you are this close to someone, you’re in

Alan Derek Utley (59:30)

Yeah.

John Marshall (59:30)

you’re leaning in, you’re in the heat of the the debate, right? Like all y what do you see? Like just their face. Right?

Alan Derek Utley (59:37)

Yeah.

John Marshall (59:39)

What do you what are you seeing? Just what they’re saying. It’s like literally and figuratively, Grace I would see is taking a step back and saying, Okay, what am I standing for here? What are you standing for? What’s valid in what I stand for? What’s valid in what you stand for?

And now let’s zoom out of our whole conversation and say what is the best thing for the team? What is the best thing for the organization? What is the best thing for our customers, clients? And let’s both speak from our vantage points, like what our our firm ground, and answer those questions together.

And maybe we’ll come up with the best way to move forward between what we’re saying or agree that one of our paths is the best way. Right. But I think it’s grace is literally and figuratively taking a step back to look at what I’m showing up with, what you’re showing up with, and what’s the bigger picture here? Like why are we even why is it even worth a conflict?

‘Cause we both have some positive outlook here. There there has to be. If it’s worth arguing about, there has to be some kind of productive productive intention on both of our parts. There should be at least.

Alan Derek Utley (1:01:09)

You make it sound so easy. No, it’s great.

John Marshall (1:01:09)

So long winded answer, but that’s what I that’s what I think.

Alan Derek Utley (1:01:14)

I think you’re right, and I love the way you t articulated it, and it it is something I saw play out in real time that’s weak. You know, conflicts occur all the time and it’s often between people who share resources but have conflicting goals. And

John Marshall (1:01:30)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:01:31)

one impacts the other. And I was sitting in a meeting and somebody announced a change that they were making to a room full of people, which I would never recommend, that impacted two people in the

Room and the two people in the room, you know, it’s like their heads were on a swivel. They look at each other, like, are you hearing this too? Or what is this happening right now? And and I could feel the battle lines being drawn, and I could feel, and then you hear the positioning, right? It no longer becomes solving, it becomes positioning, and we are taught to win, right? We are taught to get our own way, we are taught to defend our position, and we are taught sometimes.

Is to agree to disagree, just to get out of the conversation. But none of those ever actually solve the problem. And in this real-time moment,

None of them had the ability, the they were not equipped with the tools to use grace because they were stuck in their position and they were stuck in the hidden pressure of what they were gonna lose if they gave up their position. They were at war.

John Marshall (1:02:37)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:02:38)

And and it’s it’s sad when that happens because it becomes us versus us in those moments. And we lose sight of I’m shocked how many people lose sight of coworkers are co-workers.

They’re not the enemy. But we create these situations for ourselves because we get so wrapped up in what we are losing and in those hidden pressures. And so just to restate what you already said, Grace shows up in those moments by hitting the pause button or even pull playing the grace card. And by the way, I have a literal grace card right here that I give my clients.

It’s like I’m gonna play the grace card right now and if they had one they would have played it and they would have said, Alright, so let’s let’s pause and let’s figure out what’s making this moment feel not okay.

And what how am I showing up in this moment? It’s almost everything you already said. How am I showing up? How how am I and why am I getting stuck? And then what’s gonna help this situation be better without lowering the standards? And what shift do we need to make right now to get out of the traps that we’re in, to get out of it and get back to a collaborative space? That is how you use grace in those moments. It’s that intentional pausing, it’s the recognition of what’s going on.

On the story you’re telling yourself, recognizing and trying to name the pressures that you’re feeling, and then being intentional about what you do next. We are not intentional enough. We are constantly driving on autopilot. Default, we are on default mode all the time. I could keep going, but I’ll pause.

John Marshall (1:04:23)

this this is great. There’s I mean there’s just so much useful there’s there’s so many useful places where grace can show up and you know I love that you say that it’s this pause, you know, I’m very much

very deeply in into a mindfulness practice. And, you know, I do believe that I do believe that, you know, the vast majority of our interpersonal challenges are solved by creating distance between stimulus and response. Right. So I love that that’s a core of your framework here. But I’m also interested in the system too. So

You know, for for HR leaders listening right now, how should HR reinforce these kind of behaviors through, I don’t know, leader selection, development, performance systems, like how do you create a system that is graceful? Or grace fueled? Grace fueled. There we go.

Alan Derek Utley (1:05:38)

Well, I think there’s there’s a couple different ways that I think they could do that. The first is to scan the system that’s in place today and look for those contradictions. Look for those things that that keep you from having the kind of healthy culture that you want. I’ll give you just one of the most common examples that I see.

You know, you got those policies, those codes of conduct, employee handbooks, whatever you want to call it. And there’s a line in the code of conduct somewhere that says negativity in any form will result in disciplinary action up to and including termination.

So you have written toxicity into your system and you don’t even know it. You’ve just said you’re not allowed to have a different opinion, you’re not allowed to express your feelings, you’re not allowed to do anything that’s actually productive.

Unless you just do what we tell you. Just do what we tell you, essentially. So it starts there. And and I think there are four lenses that that all HR people, really business leaders who I think we call HR people, we should, need to look through. It there’s the there’s the business metrics, what are the actual things that we’re measuring, and do they align in a way

that actually support a healthy culture? Or are they costing us? There’s also the lens of the employee voice. The employees are telling you what’s working and what’s not working and you just gotta listen. And there are a variety of ways that you can do that. You can listen through employee surveys, engagement surveys, go online and read the reviews. you could also be more intentional about

skip level meetings, round table meetings, all these different things, but you actually have to listen, you have to be willing to not like what you hear, and you have to be willing to do something about it. You have

John Marshall (1:07:39)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:07:40)

to create grace in those moments. The the third lens is the the leadership impact, the actual people in the roles of leadership. And it’s about scanning the pound the the talent and the performance and the actual behaviors of those leaders are the decisions they make and the way

that they make them conducive with a healthy culture. And and then my favorite is the cultural norms lens.

Are we reinforcing the right kinds of behaviors with our incentive plans, with our processes, with our policies? You know, that’s the negativity in the policy example that I just gave you. So I think that’s that’s

John Marshall (1:08:24)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:08:24)

where you can start sort of at a at an abstract macro level, but then if you really truly want to create a grace-fueled culture, you teach it.

You add it to the core values. You make it a competency. You make it an expectation. And you let it become part of your language and your vocabulary. The the leaders that I work

John Marshall (1:08:43)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:08:44)

with, the workshops that I do, we have uncomfortable conversations in those workshops where we start to practice what it means to say the things that we’ve been all wanting to say out loud. You know, the things that we say in the hallway, or the text messages during the meetings, or the meeting the things we say in the meeting after the meeting, that we probably actually should.

John Marshall (1:09:03)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:09:04)

have

said in the meeting you know we have to learn to do that and but we have to learn the skill of grace and make it a habit and the the grace habits are 30 observable behavioral things that you can learn and these these these grace habits

are all born anecdotally from my experience, all my twenty-five years

John Marshall (1:09:31)

Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:09:31)

working in human resources and seeing it, what what works and what creates grace. But there’s not just thirty. There’s so many more than thirty, but thirty is a great place to start. And actually I wouldn’t even start with thirty. I would start with two. Start with two.

John Marshall (1:09:42)

Certainly. I was gonna say you’ll be lucky if anyone remembers three.

Alan Derek Utley (1:09:52)

So if you so if you go through one of my workshops, what you’ll get to do is take a a survival mode self-assessment. And it will reveal for you, and it’s not scientific, I’m not a science guy. You know, it’s all based on experiences, it’s based based behavioral. So you’ll take the assessment, you’ll answer honestly, and it’ll tell you what trap you might be in today. What survival mode trap you are leading from. And then I

you’ll learn the alternative. You’ll learn how to step out of that trap onto a different kind of a path, and then that’ll help you determine which kinds of habits you should start developing and start learning. So that’s that’s how you do it. Is that easy enough?

John Marshall (1:10:37)

Yeah, that’s a that’s a start. That’s a start. well, I mean I think I’m glad that you were able to address the the system level.

Right. And you know, what like those lenses feel like really the backbone of creating an aligned culture. Like are your systems aligned with your what you’re measuring and aligned with your training, aligned with what you are rewarding, incentivizing, promoting. And I think that’s you know, that really ultimately creates culture. Right? People look at who’s getting rewarded, how do they behave? Right.

when it comes when it comes down to it. Who’s getting promoted? How do they behave? Right. What are the priorities here? Because it’s like you can, you know, you can measure one thing, you can say that grace is important, but then if you promote the anti, right? If you promote the pressure creating, like, you know, survival mode exec, well that’s what people are going to believe is actually important. Right.

So I think with all of that aligned, you get to a place where you can actually create the culture that you want. So I mean, I think you I’m I really appreciated you sharing those lenses for folks to view the organization through. And, you know, again, this conversation, like we covered so much ground from the hidden pressures to

to grace, to the balance of accountability and acceptance and from the team to the organization to the self. But I’d love for you to just speak to the leader who might be recognizing themselves in this conversation. times when they’ve had hidden pressures that were driving, you know, a behavior maybe that’s just really not like them. But

Still toxic. What would be the first practice or closing word of wisdom you’d have for that particular person this week?

Alan Derek Utley (1:12:46)

first for closing my those things for the next like this one.

I I love that question. And I want them to know that they’re not toxic. It’s accidental. They’re not doing it on purpose. And I’m not I’m not talking to the person who is seeking to make things difficult for people every day because I truly believe

People want to come and do good work. And it’s because of that desire that they allow these hidden pressures to show up and drive them. And so I would say my advice is to pause, take a breath, and recognize where you want to be better and then have a conversation with a friend, somebody that you trust who can give you some honest input.

on what you’re doing and what’s not working and just get some honest advice from them. Talk to a friend, somebody who you think is safe, and just say the thing out loud that you’re feeling and let them respond. And then go from there.

John Marshall (1:13:58)

Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:00)

That’s just one thing. That’s

John Marshall (1:14:00)

And I appreciate that.

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:02)

one way to start, but it there’s so many different ways. I think there’s so many different moves that you can use to interrupt that pressure and to start making an intentional choice. I think that’s the key, John, is it’s make a ch intentional choice to start doing something different and you start by finding out what the thing is that’s not working.

John Marshall (1:14:22)

Finding the thing. So taking time to reflect, pause, and choose a different path. Unpack it with someone that you trust.

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:30)

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:14:32)

Hmm. Well, where can listeners connect with you? What would you like them to know most about Call Trade Advisory?

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:43)

Yeah. I think that I would love for people to find me on LinkedIn because I talk about Grace every day and it there there’s stories from my life, there are stories from work, stories from workshops. so please do. And I’ve got a newsletter called The Grace Period. You named it and didn’t even realize it.

John Marshall (1:15:03)

Nice.

Alan Derek Utley (1:15:04)

Yeah. So come subscribe to the newsletter. Let’s talk on LinkedIn. You can also find me on my website, Alan Derek Utley.

dot com where you can reach out to me and we could talk about working with you, bring in a workshop to your team, do a keynote for your conference. but if if I if I had to be really honest, I would love for people to find me on TikTok where my work

directly tackling the toxic boss. It’s it’s a little bit of a different angle on it, but I’m out there talking right to the toxic bosses, telling them what they’re doing wrong or what they need to do better. So come check out. Alan Derek

John Marshall (1:15:41)

Interesting. All right.

Yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna check that out. And and listeners, we will have that all linked in the show notes is LinkedIn, TikTok, and newsletter websites. So if you want to connect with Alan, please just click on the link, schedule the consultation. Like he’s right here speaking and he will speak with you. So please don’t hesitate to follow up if you feel like

Grace is something that you need to unlock your team, your organization, or yourself, really. With that, thank you so much for listening, for tuning into the present professional. Once again, I am here for you. We are here for you. So please, one thing you can do for us is wherever you’re listening to this show right now, go ahead and click that subscribe button.

And if you want to be extra sweet, go ahead and leave a review and let us know how you feel. Okay? Thank you so much again. We’ll see you next time on another episode of The Present Professional.

John Marshall (00:32)
Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today I have a special guest with us. I’m joined by Alan Derek Utley, an HR executive, speaker, and founder of Culture Aid Advisory. Alan has spent more than 25 years in HR and leadership development, and unlike many voices reflecting on corporate life from the outside, he’s still in the work every day.

His work explores the hidden pressures that cause good, well-intentioned leaders to fall into what he calls accidental or microtoxicity, and the everyday habit, the everyday grace habits that can move people and cultures in a healthier direction. Alan, welcome to the show.

Alan Derek Utley (01:23)
Thanks, John It’s a pleasure to be on. I remember our last conversation and just I I could have chatted with you for hours and I was look really looking forward to getting to do it again today. So thanks for having me. I’m ready to dive in. Where do you wanna go? Where do you wanna go first?

John Marshall (01:36)
Beautiful.

Beautiful. Well, before we before we just dive in, I’d love for the listeners to understand a little bit more about if there’s anything beyond the introduction that would be helpful for them to know. So take us through what’s gotten you to this point in your career and what made you start speaking about what you’re so passionate about today.

Alan Derek Utley (02:01)
Well, I like to start

At the beginning of getting involved in human resources, because that is sort of what got me to where I am today. But it it’s a it’s a combination of really interesting factors. I went to college to study sales and marketing because I was gonna be in sales. I really liked watching commercials. I just thought it was fascinating how someone could watch something for 30 seconds and then go buy it. Something they didn’t even know they needed, something they didn’t even

Even know they existed, and I just thought there was something cool about the psychology of that, and so I wanted to do that in some way and be a part of that in some way. So I followed a girl to school because I actually had no path, I didn’t know what I was doing. I never even checked out any schools, and I don’t recommend that. so I kind of just lucked into having a really great person that I followed, and she went to a great school. I ended up there, and I’ll never forget I had already started my my studies in the business school and sales and marketing, and one day I was back.

Home with her, and we were I still remember it vividly. I was sitting at the kitchen table, and it’s a kitchen table that I still sit in today. And my girlfriend’s dad at the time said, you know, this sales and marketing thing is interesting, but I I think you should check out human resources. And he was working for this very corporate organization, he was very high-level executive, and he had positive experiences with his HR people, and that’s why he said that.

to me. He just I think he made a connection what he knew about me with the people he worked with and he just seemed I had no idea what that was. People still today don’t know what human resources really is. It’s not like being an astronaut or a lawyer, right? Go to career day and the HR guy walks up. Like they don’t like there’s no concept of what that means. So I said sure because I wanted to please him because I was intending to marry his daughter someday. And I think I already gave it away that I did. That worked out.

And we’ve been

John Marshall (04:03)
Right.

Alan Derek Utley (04:03)
together We’ve been together a long time now and I still remind him of that. anyway, so I went and I studied human resources. I didn’t give up on sales and marketing, I studied that too.

And then I graduated and I got my very first job doing neither of those things, as as happens to a lot of people who get a degree. In one thing, they end up in somewhere something else completely. And I I absolutely did not enjoy the job that I had. I did not enjoy the culture. But what it did do was it introduced me to a leadership development program, the concept, the idea of leadership development.

Because what they were doing is they were they were hiring people right out of college to go work for this company and their plan was six months rotation, a 12 year, sorry, a tw a a full twelve twelve month rotation. They would eventually put you through every department of that organization and prepare you to be shipped off to go lead one of their properties or one of their areas, part of their business. And

John Marshall (05:10)
Hm.

Alan Derek Utley (05:11)
they were making future presidents basically of of their different organizations.

And I was all in. I thought that was pretty cool. But there was something about the culture, the people, the environment that didn’t connect for me. The work itself was not something I was necessarily passionate about. So I decided to leave that organization. But I wait I decided, and this is advice for anybody, I waited a whole year before making my exit because I realized I needed to develop a resume and I couldn’t just show that I was leaving after three months, even though I wanted to. So I waited a year.

I started applying, trying to get a sales and marketing job somewhere, and I couldn’t, couldn’t find a single thing anywhere. And then my wife said, Hey, so there was this other job that I was offered when we were graduating from college. So she got offered a human resources job, even though she had no degree in human resources.

John Marshall (06:04)
Hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (06:05)
And she said, I declined that job because she went a different path. But hey, they just called me because they were looking up past candidates, they were trying to, you know, they wondered maybe.

If

I would be interested, and she said, I told them I’m not, but my husband’s looking and he actually has an HR degree. Are you seeing a trend here? So my wife made a lot of things happen for me. Yeah, followed her to college. Her

John Marshall (06:25)
Yeah. Thank thank you. Thank you to your wife.

Alan Derek Utley (06:31)
dad gave some advice on a major, and then she got me my first job in HR. And John, I hated it. I did not like

Human resources. I was not interested in sitting at a desk and processing benefits, answering questions about leaves and time cards and all those things. Disliked it very much. I disliked it so much that I was doing anything but the actual job they had hired me to do.

So I was up moving around, making friends with other departments, learning what other people do, making up my own projects. And that

John Marshall (07:06)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (07:06)
started leading to coaching and more.

stern coaching and you know, the what happens to people, right? The corrective actions, the performance improvement plans, the but you’re probably not a good fit for us. And I was once again making my exit, thinking I’m finally gonna go into sales and marketing. And then something happened that changed all of that. I had a leader from another department, same company, still within HR,

John Marshall (07:34)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (07:35)
come to me and she said, We want you to come help us out. Which I thought was odd because I was sort of a misfit.

not performing, not doing well, but she was willing to give me a shot

John Marshall (07:46)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (07:47)
in her department. And what previously felt like being under a dark cloud every day, you know, th that that moment where you’re driving to work and you’re looking around and you’re like, what am I doing? Why? Why is this my

John Marshall (07:58)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (08:00)
life? I don’t like my job. Wha w what what am I gonna do? Lay laying in bed at night,

John Marshall (08:04)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (08:05)
staring at the ceiling, just being completely depressed and unhappy about your career choices

John Marshall (08:09)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (08:10)
so early on.

All that went away. Because this job that she had me doing was the exact same things I was doing that made me bad at the other job. It was moving around, making connections, finding projects to complete. She put me in recruiting.

That was the other sort of under the HR umbrella job that suddenly so what she did, and I thank her for this, she she recognized that what was making me a misfit over here would would make me a fit over here. I was misfit, basically. And that really changed everything, changed my trajectory completely. And the recruiting then very quickly turned into hey, can you go new do new hire orientation? Because what I haven’t shared with you, I think I may have told you.

this before, but I growing up I did a lot of theater. I was on stage constantly and so I had a comfort with being in front of people. So they connected that and it made me do new eye orientation. And so suddenly I started falling in love with the work.

And it

John Marshall (09:19)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (09:19)
it was it was I was doing things that I was naturally good at. There was a connection for me and I was finding ways to start adding value. And I still left that organization because I was there for three years and I got off on the wrong foot and so I was never gonna be someone who could develop long term, or at least I didn’t think I was. But I had at least found my

John Marshall (09:40)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (09:41)
way and then I got in with another organization and I’m gonna I’m you know, long story short, I started really

Finding my way. And I took my skills in recruiting and in training, started doing more general employee relations kinds of work, avoiding benefits and leaves and time cards, but you know, that’s still a part of the job, and I still have to do that, and they’ve learned how to do that. but

John Marshall (10:05)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (10:05)
I you started growing and progressing and becoming an HR manager, becoming an HR director, and then I got to connect the very first job I ever had, and I finally got to turn it into something of value. It was a company.

That I didn’t like, right? A culture that it wasn’t a fit for me, but I understood and learned how to do leadership development by being a part of a leadership development program. I then got to create my own leadership development program for this new organization that was going through multiple layers of acquisitions and mergers and all these changes, and I got to help create the strategy. So I was connecting all the things that I was good at, the things that I loved, the things that that I felt like I could add value in. And I even started teaching a a leadership course at

At the University of Texas, San Antonio, around that time too, because I had also gone back to get my master’s degree and was finally figuring this all out. Finally understood why my father-in-law suggested HR for me.

John Marshall (11:01)
Hmm. Wow.

Alan Derek Utley (11:03)
So then how do you get to what I’m doing today?

All along the way, so I I’ve been in I b I’ve been in human resources now for over twenty five years. And there’s been this common thread of things that I’ve had to be involved in and and experience. And it’s it’s the darker side of working inside organizations. It’s the stuff, it’s it’s kind of why HR exists really in the beginning. It’s it it’s the experiences that the employees have that make them feel

undervalued, make them feel that eventually leave them disengaged and are the things that com become the complaints, that become the investigations, the things that I have to get involved in. And you know, I haven’t mentioned that yet, but that’s a huge part of the work that I have to do. And I spend a ton of time having conversations with people trying to understand the conditions that are making them feel like they’re being mistreated, that they’re being discriminated against, or that they’re being

Unfavored because someone else is a favorite, that that are keeping them from being developed, keeping them from getting the pay that they think they’ve earned, you know, all those things. And there was a point when I just I found myself saying, There’s got to be a better way. And I started standing up and saying, guys, let’s just let’s just all get along. But but even more simply,

John Marshall (12:30)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (12:32)
everybody just be nice.

Just be nice. And and at some point in my career I also gained the nickname Mr. Nice Guy. I hope you can tell why. I mean I’m nice, right? I try

John Marshall (12:44)
Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (12:44)
I I I shouldn’t call myself that. I shouldn’t say that about myself, but I feel like, you know, that’s that’s the vibe that I give off that I’m nice. which which surprises some people because when I can have a tough conversation, I’m I’m I can have a tough conversation, right? I’m I’m capable of that. But

I started realizing that was super naive, super Pollyanish, super unrealistic. And despite that, I was still standing up and trying to find a way to articulate there’s gotta be a better way. and along the lines, I too became the quote victim of what we’re gonna call toxic workplaces.

I’ve I’ve had my own leaders who have had me squarely in their own target who have said things that anybody would interpret as a threat to their job, a threat to their work that they do, anything that would make them feel unsafe, right? And and there’s also those those early experiences that we all have where a leader will make you feel like whatever’s going on in your life, you can’t bring it to work. Whatever’s going on outside

John Marshall (13:53)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (13:55)
needs to be left outside.

you know, leave it

John Marshall (13:57)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (13:58)
at the door kind of mentality. So those are the things that start deeply getting deeply ingrained in you. And you know, it’s the you know, you w when you start as an hourly associate or hourly employee, you know, you gotta be here at six. And if you’re not here at six, you’re in trouble. And you can’t stay past five without getting approval for overtime and you stay past five, you’re in trouble. you can’t have a personal life, so don’t take any personal calls and if you do, you’re in trouble. You know, these these are things that all things that I did and all things that that

Also, and by the way, you work in human resources, you’re not allowed to make friends with coworkers. And and I was. I was making friends with coworkers, and I got quickly told, stop doing those things. So I’m starting to learn some of these behaviors myself, and I’m starting to turn into sort of a robot at some point in my career too. And was even called a robot a few times by a few

John Marshall (14:47)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (14:48)
different people and

Those are the kinds of moments that make you stop and pay attention and start to really think about what you’re doing and the kind of environment you’re helping to contribute to. So

John Marshall (14:59)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (15:00)
all all of that eventually got to a point where I’m saying there’s gotta be a better way. I learned some of these bad habits, I see the bad habits, there’s gotta be a solution. And and there was an experience, it and I’ll tee this up and then you tell me if you want to go here now or or maybe later. But I had exper I had an experience, I had two very

Very significant experiences that put me squarely in the target of toxicity that made me very afraid for my

John Marshall (15:28)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (15:28)
job. And then there was a probably a year later an experience that showed me, whoa, there there really is a different way. There is another way. And it took sent me on a journey of sort of unpacking and being able to explain what that is. All of that has become

the body of work that I focus on today and and why I do this kind of work. And and I’ll here’s the last thing to I I think to actually answer one of your original questions, which was why am I why am I straddling both worlds today? Why you know I I’m working still full time as as an HR person, as an HR director with an organization, and I’m also pursuing this other work. And it and it’s less about pursuing this work and more about trying to create a movement and change culture, which

is a huge task. It’s a huge ask. But I feel like somebody’s gotta start somewhere. And and that’s the work that I’m trying to do. And I’m still doing both today because I can. I have I’m just I’m able

John Marshall (16:32)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (16:33)
to make the time because I’ve got leaders in an organization that I work with that that values me as an individual who has other pursuits and gives me the support and the and the time to be able to do those things while still doing my job. because I still do my job.

John Marshall (16:49)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (16:51)
but it also keeps me fresh, right? Like I could give you five examples from this last week of things that tie directly to the work and it reminds me every day of why this work is so important and it gives me opportunities to deliver that message to people I work with every day and add value to what they’re doing and then helps me take that message to you and to other organizations. So there you go. That’s the longest that I’ve ever talked in one setting, so there you go. Where do you want to go from there?

Beautiful.

John Marshall (17:21)
Welcome to Alan’s TED Talk.

Wow, well

I heard a lot in your story and one thing that really stood out was the person that took you from a misfit to the right fit. And

Alan Derek Utley (17:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (17:44)
that was something I just wanted to pause and highlight of like

Within Alan’s story, like you can see how

Alan Derek Utley (17:54)
Significant.

John Marshall (17:55)
much that changed the trajectory of his career. Right? Like, and I’m I’m speaking directly to you listeners who are in the seat to

Alan Derek Utley (17:58)
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

John Marshall (18:09)
find the right fit for people and for people that feel like they are misfits right now.

is like that there is a place for you and it’s like finding those things that you are naturally doing that were not a fit for the role that you were

in and like the foresight that that person had to see those things will actually be useful here. I just didn’t want to glaze over that moment because I think that’s

Alan Derek Utley (18:42)
Yeah.

John Marshall (18:42)
just a really important concept for people to understand.

And how they can contribute to the the careers of the young people around them. And well, not even just the young people, but the careers of the misfits around them. So one, thank you for bringing that up, because I think that’s really, really important. And then

There’s this thread of where you’ve experienced all of these things from the victim side of things, but also from the observer and investigator point of view. Where you are supporting people who are experiencing those different things that are making them feel disengaged.

Right, making them feel uncomfortable, segregated against, discriminated, right? However you want to to bucket all of the different things that happen. But I’m really interested in the way you talk about toxicity when it comes to like accidental toxicity, right? And

‘Cause I think this like really invites the because I find when I’m even when I’m working with my clients, right, we we vilify the parts of ourselves that we actually need to integrate the most. So it’s a lot of times I’ll have clients that say

Right. I never want to be like them. They’re so just like abrasive and never w and the that same client is usually the person that would the biggest growth edge is being more assertive. But they

Alan Derek Utley (20:26)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (20:27)
vilify being assertive with being an asshole. Right.

Alan Derek Utley (20:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (20:33)
So but but I love the way that you are framing it

when it comes to accidental toxicity, because I don’t think a lot of people mean to be toxic. Like I don’t think a lot of like yes, there are certainly sociopaths in the w I probably in every workplace, right? But but I think that’s why I I hope, I would bet that that’s the vast minority, right? But I think

the majority fall into this place of like like you started to experience where you were saying, I started falling into it like a robot. Like I was a product of my environment that created this toxic behavior to essentially assimilate to my environment. So I’d love for you to talk a little bit more about what you mean when you say accidental toxicity or these micro toxic moments.

Alan Derek Utley (21:34)
Well. And just for the record, I still do it. Because it’s I still do some of these things because it’s just human nature. let me stop let me start with broad strokes and then we’ll get into some of those micro toxic examples and I’ll tell you why. I’m gonna start with why I think this happens. We somehow have forced a choice.

i in terms of how we lead. And i it’s two ends of the same spectrum and they are extreme. One choice is you have to be able to hold people accountable. The other choice is will you just accept whatever happens.

Some people could call that avoidance, right? It you’re you’re either holding

John Marshall (22:23)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (22:24)
everybody accountable or you’re or you’re or you’re not. And then you’re just letting people do whatever they want. And so then what happens when we choose accountability? number one, not everybody’s good at that, right? It’s not their their instinct, it’s not their natural state, it’s not mine. well actually until I became a parent, I didn’t think it was, but I think something happens to

John Marshall (22:45)
Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (22:46)
you. It becomes different when you become a parent. I’ve learned so much from

We could do a whole other podcast on that.

John Marshall (22:52)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (22:53)
But what happens when you’re when you hold people accountable, then you you create systems of fear. You create systems that are driven by power. You create systems that make people feel like they have to be perfect. You create systems

John Marshall (23:08)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (23:08)
that allow pressure to be the driver of motivation. And people will do and act and and complete tasks simply to avoid accountability. We’ve turned accountability into a

A bad word. And it’s

John Marshall (23:25)
Hm.

Alan Derek Utley (23:25)
that’s what creates that those that that feeling of you know you call your boss toxic because they’re checking in on you. You know, they give you a deadline. Here’s a microtoxic example, John. I give you a deadline of Friday, right? I tell you what needs to get done, and then on Wednesday I say, How are you doing?

And it seems like like if you look at it through through my lens as the leader, I’m just making sure the work gets done and I’m checking in with you to see if you have any questions. But what you’re hearing is he doesn’t trust me. He you then slap a label on me of a micromanager.

And then there’s the opposite end, which is it acceptance, which is you know over-empowerments, over-delegation, which I have also done, by the way. I’ve been on every side of the spectrum. and then what you’re get like people are pointing at me as the person who cannot hold people accountable. And people are running over me. And I c and I what am I l I’m losing, I’m losing high quality, I’m losing high performance, I’m l you know, and we’re as a business, we’re suffering because I can’t get my people to

produce. So we’re we’re saying

John Marshall (24:35)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (24:36)
you can be only one or the other. And what happens is on either end of that spectrum, we’re we’re stifling our humanity. We’re stifling our capacity. Because if if I’m just letting you be, then I’m not pushing you enough to discover what you’re capable of.

And if I am putting my finger on you constantly, then I’m stifling your ability to take risks. I’m stifling your ability to think, to solve, to experiment.

John Marshall (25:04)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (25:05)
And so we find ourselves in one of these two spots because that’s the system that we’ve created. And then people start calling us toxic. They start calling us bullies. And yeah. Go.

John Marshall (25:15)
Hmm. Well, it just to interject real

quick, the when so when we have the two ends of the spectrum, just so I’m understanding you correctly, we got accountability on one end, acceptance on the other end, right? Which I guess it acceptance right now is a little synonymous with like autonomy or freedom, and then accountability around

Alan Derek Utley (25:39)
Yeah. Or or avoidance.

John Marshall (25:41)
Right, yeah, or or or avoidance. Interesting. ‘Cause you know, I always say that, you know, autonomy without accountability is chaos, right? Which I feel like is the middle of the spectrum that we’re that we’re talking about here. But I’m I’m curious like how

Is it just a genetic disposition? Like how do people fall towards one way or the other in different systems? I guess like what are the variables that cause people to fall towards accountability or or acceptance?

Alan Derek Utley (26:14)
Well, I don’t have a scientific answer to that because I’m not that’s not my space, but I I’ll give you a twenty five years informed exper answer. I think it yeah, that’s that’s all I got. I think

John Marshall (26:22)
Anecdotal’s fine for me. Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (26:26)
it is how we are it it is our natural talents. I mean if we go back to me being a misfit, right? It it it it was it was it was putting me into a role that did not speak to my strengths and my talents and my abilities, or I just hadn’t discovered how to use my talents in that role. And so I do

Think, you know, if if you take someone’s Clifton Strengths, for example, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that or Strengths Finder, you’ll have people who show up with command as their number one strength. And that’s going to be someone

John Marshall (26:54)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (26:55)
who I know is not going to have a hard time holding me accountable. And then you might have somebody

John Marshall (26:59)
Got it.

Alan Derek Utley (27:00)
who has adaptability as their number one strength. And they’re going to say, It’s cool, we’ll go with the flow. And so those are extremes, right? But I do think it’s it

John Marshall (27:09)
Okay.

Alan Derek Utley (27:10)
probably prov serves as an answer to your question. I think some of it

It could just be how are what’s in our DNA and the experiences that formed us before we got into the workplace. Maybe. What do you think?

John Marshall (27:19)
Mm. So kind of our

natural our natural disposition as opposed to the systems that we’re in. Well, I guess I guess you’re right. It’s kind of nature versus nurture in a way.

Can the system nurture you toward a more command and control way? Like if it’s, you know, a la a company made up of entire former military, you’re probably leading leaning more towards the accountability end of the spectrum.

Alan Derek Utley (27:49)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (27:50)
But it’s

But I’m s it’s like I’m seeing the positives with like the accountability side. Like it’s

Alan Derek Utley (27:59)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (28:00)
like we need to be able to trust that people will follow through with their commitments, right? And when I look at when I look at accountability, I always try to

like decouple it from the consequences, right? It’s like through accountability, we’re actually trying to make better decisions. So when we’re held ourselves accountable to something, we should learn, did we were we not accurate with the amount of effort this would take? Were we not accurate about the time? Were we not accurate about the resources that you needed to be successful? I think accountability is associated with like what does the process need? What do you need to be successful? But if

If we don’t set specific accountability measures, we can’t discover that.

Alan Derek Utley (28:50)
Okay, but John, you you just modeled something that

sorry, I interru let me let you finish that, because I I I gotta jump when you’re ready.

John Marshall (28:57)
Yep, for sure. I was th I was thinking the but the other side when it comes to like acceptance, I’m I’m struggling to find the like the same positives with with acceptance because I keep landing at, you know, like acceptance and avoidance I feel are a little bit different words, right? And

And then or even autonomy or or freedom. Like I feel like it’s good to be able to provide employees autonomy, but but when it comes to like of avoiding, like avoiding the tough conversation, avoiding setting the deadline, like that’s not a that’s not a good thing. So I guess like I immediately see the need for accountability, but when it comes to like the word acceptance, I’m struggling there.

Alan Derek Utley (29:47)
Okay. And maybe that’s how you’re genetically predisposed. Maybe you’re more

John Marshall (29:51)
Maybe.

Alan Derek Utley (29:53)
On the accountability

John Marshall (29:53)
Maybe.

Alan Derek Utley (29:54)
side. Cause I would tell you the the acceptance side feels more natural for me. And so here’s here’s what I here let me offer this as an example of the value of the acceptance.

John Marshall (30:05)
Yes.

Alan Derek Utley (30:06)
It’s the employee who delivers the big presentation, right? They they they planned it for weeks, they memorized it, and they walked in there, and halfway through they forgot their what they were gonna say and they their notes got all right. It’s it’s a very textbook.

Example, you’ll see it in the movies, right? As their leader, my default is not gonna be you screwed this up, and I’m gonna have to hold you accountable. It’s gonna be, you know what, it’s okay because I want them to feel okay in that moment. They’re already feeling

John Marshall (30:38)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (30:39)
embarrassed, they’re already feeling all the feelings, and I want to take those feelings away. And so I’m gonna say, It’s okay.

John Marshall (30:48)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (30:49)
Does that resonate at all?

John Marshall (30:52)
It it does when you’re we’re talking about like acceptance of the human being, right? Like I see

Alan Derek Utley (30:57)
Yeah, okay.

John Marshall (30:58)
you I see you and your capacity for mistakes as we all have. I see that as a as a you know, as a deeply human form of acceptance. But there’s a difference between like acceptance and tolerating mediocrity, like when it comes to what we want to accomplish here together.

So I think there’s like there’s got to be a I mean we keep coming back to balance, right? It’s like

Alan Derek Utley (31:27)
That’s it.

John Marshall (31:28)
when do we when do we understand that like the employee we keep putting in front of everyone to deliver these presentations maybe is not a good fit. Right? Because

Alan Derek Utley (31:39)
Yeah. Right.

John Marshall (31:41)
it’s like I can see I can see a company spiraling downward.

Right, saying like, you know, it’s okay. Everybody makes mistakes. Like we’ll get the next we’ll get the next million dollar deal that will, you know, that’ll keep us afloat. But then it’s like we’re too far,

Alan Derek Utley (32:01)
No

John Marshall (32:02)
we’re too far at the end of that spectrum. Like maybe we need maybe we need another person giving giving the presentations. Right? But but I think that comes

Alan Derek Utley (32:07)
I I would lose my job as the leader in that moment. Yeah.

John Marshall (32:12)
down to again the the the fit, right? The fit in some like

folks are better fit for roles than than others, right? But that doesn’t mean that we make that person feel less human, right? It’s I th so I think there’s a threshold for acceptance where it’s like, I see you. I see that you make mistakes. I see that this happened and how can I support you to ensure that you’re prepared next time, right?

Alan Derek Utley (32:44)
But see this isn’t fair because you are already somebody who gets it.

John Marshall (32:50)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (32:50)
And so y you’re modeling what we’re trying to teach the average workplace. I’ve

John Marshall (32:57)
Thank you. Let me yeah, let me let me take a step back.

Alan Derek Utley (33:00)
Yeah.

You’re already there, John. And you know, so so here’s the example. What what I was trying to jump on earlier is you’re modeling what what that balance is and what I believe is the solution is the antidote to the toxic workplaces. And and I by the way, I’ve I’ve shifted away from from really I mean, I’m I still wanna I still wanna heal the toxic workplaces, right? I I want that

John Marshall (33:28)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (33:28)
to happen.

But I’m getting to this point because I’m thinking of it as accidental. I don’t think people wake up every day and intend to be toxic. It’s the conditions that exist in our workplaces that cause that. We are working from a place of survival mode. And it’s in what it is, I’ve I finally figured it out. It’s it’s hidden pressure. It’s the pressure that’s hiding in every corner and crack and crevice of the building, virtual or literal, that we’re pretending is not there.

And and we’re operating, trying to pr go please go. What were we gonna say?

John Marshall (34:06)
No, no, no. This you just unlock something with that with that word, right? I agree. Hidden hidden pressure. The pressure that’s unspoken. yes. Please continue to

Alan Derek Utley (34:20)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (34:23)
elaborate on on hidden pressure.

Alan Derek Utley (34:25)
Yeah, so here’s the example, and this is a recent one, and it’s one that I’ve seen play out over and over and over again. It’s the i in and I keep talking about labels. because the the labels are what make it easy. They they become our shorthand, the micromanager, right, as as a man as as a label for a leader, but there’s also the label that we give employees. You hear labels like they’re entitled, they’re not a team player.

They are negative. And that’s a that’s a very common one. That there’s a negative employee and they’re being disruptive. And so what the manager’s doing, and and I don’t fault them, they don’t have these skills. They’re not equipped to handle this because they’re getting pressure to solve. They’re getting pressure to perform. And so they’re taking that pressure, they’re balling it up, and they’re passing it to the next person. And they don’t realize that they’re catching it. They don’t realize it’s being thrown at them. But

The the manager will say, Well, that person’s just being so negative. And what they’re not doing is they’re not looking behind that label to what’s causing the behavior that they are calling disruptive. And so what you were modeling

John Marshall (35:31)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (35:32)
was constructive curiosity. We don’t need constructive criticism. We need constructive curiosity. I don’t need the manager to go and say, You’re being negative.

‘Cause we we teach that, right? We teach, be honest, be direct, tell what what’s going on, but that’s the wrong thing to teach. We need to teach

John Marshall (35:53)
Yeah. Your being negative is not

helpful. Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (35:55)
is not helpful. You all you’ve done is you’ve put them in a box and you’ve made them feel even worse. And then eventually it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because everything that they do, you’re you’ve created a narrative, and everything they do is just the pressure is mounting. They’re gonna get negative because they’re being told they’re negative. But if we paused and we said, you know what?

I’m noticing something from you that is just it it feels negative. And I mean, like you you said this, you said that, you did this. You know, speak the behaviors that you see that you’re absolutely actually observable, and then you say, What’s up? What’s going on? How can I help you? What questions do you have? Where are you struggling? What are you running into? What can I do?

That’s what we just don’t teach people well enough. And it’s it’s your average frontline supervisor, your manager who was thrust into the role. This is a tale as old as time, right? They were because they were good at the job, so they suddenly had to manage people,

John Marshall (36:59)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:00)
and no one ever taught them to manage people. And then they finally did teach them to manage people, but they taught them to manage processes. They never

John Marshall (37:07)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:08)
taught them to manage humans.

They never said, you know, if someone is being negative, pause, have a conversation, find out what’s up, and figure out how you can help them. And you’ve got time to do that, by the way. I’m okay with you

John Marshall (37:22)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:22)
spending the time doing that. That is the middle. Because you can go into that conversation and and you can say what you’re doing is.

Is it’s actually creating disruption. You can say that. It’s creating disruption. And let me tell you how it’s creating disruption. But the questions you’re asking are are good questions. I want to teach you a way to ask those questions in a way that are least disruptive. I want you to come to my

John Marshall (37:48)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (37:48)
office at you know, every day at two o’clock, I’m gonna be available to you. If you got questions, let’s talk through those. But I need you, I’m gonna answer your questions, but I need you when you show up to your job to demonstrate positive behaviors.

I’m not gonna say be positive, because you can’t force that. But you can say,

John Marshall (38:08)
Mm-mm.

Alan Derek Utley (38:09)
I need you to demonstrate positive, helpful, productive behaviors with the team, and here’s what that looks like. So you can so you can hold someone accountable, you can accept them for being a human being, and you can still raise the game.

John Marshall (38:23)
There we go. Now I’m satisfied.

Alan Derek Utley (38:24)
I mean that’s okay, good. Okay.

And and I got a word for that. And th the word is grace.

John Marshall (38:36)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (38:38)
And

like th it is the grace is the emotional heartbeat of all the work that I do. That is the word that once upon a time I discovered

And realized, I mean, like it described a moment that I had with a leader who gave me the space to be imperfect, who gave me the space to realize that what was going on was not good. And she allowed me to be a human being in that moment, but then she also allowed me to turn that moment into something that we could grow from. We continued to grow from. And so my definition of grace is not just let it go.

It’s permission to be human and it’s an invitation to continue to be better.

John Marshall (39:23)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (39:23)
‘Cause we

are all imperfect, and that’s okay. So grace is what we need to teach people. And once upon a time, somebody put integrity on core values. What the heck was that? Somebody put respect, they put trust, you know, they put these abstract concepts on core values, and now they show up everywhere. Now it’s time that we put grace on the core values, because that’s what you need to actually do all those things. And we

John Marshall (39:51)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (39:52)
need to teach people how to do it.

John Marshall (40:43)
Okay, there’s there’s a lot there.

Where I’m feeling pulled to go is these when we talk about pressure, right? I don’t want to glance over some of the pressures that exist, right? And and I feel like a lot of them are, you know

almost understood, right? That this is this is a priority. We have to hit we have to hit this number. We have to get this out by this date. We have to you know, or it’s like, you know, the investors weren’t happy, or the board is feeling like this is maybe not the wrong the right direction. Or you know, I don’t know. I mean, it’s like all of those things that are a little bit indirect are coming up for me.

as you know, as hidden pressures. I feel like the more I feel like the more direct and clear you are about like, you know, this specific thing is off. We need to go this direction, or this is the change that we need to have with the str to the strategy specifically,

Alan Derek Utley (41:52)
Yeah.

John Marshall (41:53)
you know, I feel like that is necessary pressure. and I’m just I’m just kind of spitballing here from what I’m hearing what I think hidden pressures could be. But

Where am I off the mark? What are some hidden pressures that listeners are probably facing right now that you experience, or I guess that are part of your work?

Alan Derek Utley (42:14)
Yeah.

No, that’s I mean, that is just such such a great question and it it is something that bears more exploration because we do need to get better at naming the hidden pressures because we can’t tackle them if we d if we can’t name them.

And a lot of it has gotta be it it’s the stuff that’s subconscious, it’s the things that we don’t say out loud. It’s the hard thing that you don’t say out loud. And and I’ll I’ll tell you a story that I think maybe could help explain it. It’s it’s when you have a family member in the hospital and you know as a human being where you’re supposed to be. It’s an easy answer. You should be with your family

John Marshall (42:57)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (42:58)
member who’s in the hospital.

But what starts to come up for every one of us who’s ever worked in corporate America or any job anywhere is if I don’t show up to work, I’m

I’m gonna start to be labeled as unreliable. if I don’t show up to work, it becomes an occurrence on my attendance policy. if I forget to even text that I’m coming into work, or if I text the wrong person, I’m gonna get a n a mark. if if I can’t be at work to complete this project, it’s not gonna get done, and then I’m gonna get in trouble and then we’re not gonna perform right. It’s this snowball, it’s this domino, and it becomes this thing that’s deeply rooted in each of us, and I still feel that

guilt today. When I’m not constantly working, when I’m not constantly doing something that moves the needle forward on the job that I’m supposed to do every day, there is this tremendous guilt. And I’m sure that a lot of that’s just me, but I think it is a lot of people. Those are the hidden pressures, the things that we don’t say out loud that drive us to make the wrong choice.

John Marshall (44:05)
Yeah, I went to like I went to the you know, upline pressures, market pressures and all of that, but

Alan Derek Utley (44:11)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (44:12)
you know, it’s actually the pressure to be who I think they want me to be in general.

Alan Derek Utley (44:19)
Yeah,

dang, yeah.

John Marshall (44:23)
is what I’m what I’m hearing. And and I think it goes in both both sides of what you just said, because the amount of people that that I

Alan Derek Utley (44:36)
Yeah.

John Marshall (44:36)
can think of that are saying, you know, I need to be there or I am thought of as this, I think there’s also

Alan Derek Utley (44:43)
Yes.

John Marshall (44:44)
the same amount and group of people that are like, I’m gonna show up anyway because it makes me look like this.

Alan Derek Utley (44:51)
Yes. Yes.

John Marshall (44:52)
Like

as as opposed to like the f like the fear side of things, like more of the more of like the the badge of honor kind of kind of thing. Like, yes, I have a family member in the hospital, but I’m gonna but I’m gonna fly to this meeting anyway because I’m someone that shows

Alan Derek Utley (45:09)
Yeah.

John Marshall (45:10)
up, because I’m someone that, you know, like prioritizes the business.

So it’s like I think there’s I think there like there’s people on both sides and I think both sides of that are toxic. Right.

Alan Derek Utley (45:24)
Yeah,

you’re right. You nailed it. ‘Cause we applaud grace under pressure. I which which makes

John Marshall (45:32)
Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (45:32)
us feel like you have to take on more and more and more pressure and that becomes toxic.

John Marshall (45:41)
Because so culturally so the so I guess where we’re going with this thought experiment is like both sides of them of that person, those people, need to are trying to be someone that they think other people want me to be, that they think I’m supposed to be or something. I think they think I’m supposed to be. Right.

Alan Derek Utley (46:06)
Yeah.

John Marshall (46:08)
So the the middle ground or the grace is whoa dude what what are you doing here? Like go back home. We’ll handle

Alan Derek Utley (46:16)
Yeah. huh.

John Marshall (46:18)
the meeting. Like we’re not tolerating we’re not tolerating this you know neglecting your personal life. Right.

Because I feel like that then sends the message to the other camp of folks that, whoa, like it’s a priority that I actually handle that so I can show up when I need to. So I think it’s like if you accept the like the behavior, if you accept the one side of the behavior where I am

you know, focusing on the business at all costs, then you’re sending the same message that supports the other side of, geez, in order to feel like I’m contributing, I need to show up. So it’s like you can’t even just say, well, there he is. Like I guess he values the business. Like you actually have to directly address that kind of behavior

the neglecting of the personal life to show the other side that it’s important. Am I am I on to something here? Okay, okay. Okay. This is fascinating.

Alan Derek Utley (47:17)
Yes. You’re nailing it, man. Is yeah, it it’s about yeah. And that’s those microtoxic

behaviors, right? It’s you you don’t realize you’re doing it, but you are modeling the wrong behavior and you are reinforcing it by doing it. I mean, it’s the manager who says, Hey, go on vacation, don’t check your email, and then the manager goes on vacation and is constantly checking their email. So which is it?

Right, w which which one are we actually gonna do here? You so if my manager is actually checking their email, then I’m gonna be checking my email when I go on vacation too. Because that’s what my manager is doing. It’s the model of and that’s you know, that’s a very low risk, low bar example, but it’s the kind of example. And then the inverse, like you just said, it’s it it’s the it’s the leader who on a call, and this was a real story, responded to somebody who was very, you know, lower level, higher.

Hierarchically, to this person who asked a question that was almost expressing a dissenting opinion to the direction that that business was going or that team was going in. And the leader’s response, after a brief pause, was: I need everybody to know you don’t have permission to disagree with me. And then he followed that up with: it’s a requirement.

that you disagree with me. So there was a moment of wait, where is he going with this? But in that moment, he modeled

John Marshall (48:45)
Love that.

Alan Derek Utley (48:47)
absolutely the right behavior. It cause ’cause the ex right the the expectation is back to your your thread.

The peer the person I’m supposed to be is just the good soldier who goes along with the direction no matter what. Even if I’m not sure about it, right? That’s the expectation. But what he did was say, it doesn’t matter your role, it doesn’t matter your title. You can ask questions, you can challenge, you can have an opinion you were allowed, and it’s okay. I’ll make it safe to do that.

John Marshall (49:16)
That’s a good one.

Alan Derek Utley (49:17)
That’s

the kind of race that we’re talking about. Yeah. Yeah. We’re trying to be somebody that people want us or think that we should be.

It is the so in my twenty-five years in HR, I I I can’t even count the number of leaders that I’ve seen step into a first-time leadership role or even a promotion, which becomes a first-time role, right? It’s you know, you go manager to director, VP, those things. There is this bizarre thing that happens where they become somebody different, and they become this person, they put on this suit of armor, they put on this veneer, this polish that you just know is fake.

Fake it till you make it is not helpful because you’re gonna break it. And the thing is, we know you’re faking it. We know that you don’t know everything about this job because you’re new in the job. Nobody ever knows everything about it. And so there I think, but but what’s happening is they believe I am now in charge, I’m now the manager, I have to know all, do all, be all, and never mess up. And because of that, they will make decisions, they will express opinions, they will do anything.

And then they will double down on it, even if it was wrong, because they can’t be wrong.

John Marshall (50:33)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (50:34)
And then they’re gonna flame out, and everyone is gonna fail as a result because they’re trying to reach this ideal of a perfect leader, a perfect performer, and that is a toxic chase. They say that practice makes perfect, but chasing perfection is a toxic practice.

John Marshall (50:55)
Yeah. It’s I mean, now I’m just like visualizing this hidden pressure just always to these these archetypes in our mind of who I need to be. Right? The leader that jumps into that role that says

Okay, I’m in this new I’m in this new level. Like I have to be at this level and be like everyone else and live up to these expectations. There’s no space for learning. I should be directing. But it’s like all of

Alan Derek Utley (51:22)
Yes, right.

John Marshall (51:23)
those shoulds, all of those shoulds are not grace, right? And grace

Alan Derek Utley (51:28)
Yeah.

John Marshall (51:29)
is whether it be a grace period, like literally to learn, to it’s like

Alan Derek Utley (51:33)
You got it. That’s exactly what it is. Yeah.

But it’s a grace period that never ends. It’s not a thirty minute grace period.

John Marshall (51:39)
Yeah, yeah.

But I mean, I think there’s a I think there’s again, I I’m I’m like the balance between the tolerating mediocrity and like moving forward and accomplishing our goal together, you know, I d I do now

I think you can always

Alan Derek Utley (52:00)
Okay.

John Marshall (52:01)
w bestow grace and be in a spa a state of grace, but it’s like w from a grace period of from a learning perspective, like you should get your feet under you within a role, right, to start meeting

Alan Derek Utley (52:18)
yeah.

John Marshall (52:18)
expectations by a certain point, but I don’t think you stop learning at that point.

Alan Derek Utley (52:26)
No, I agree.

John Marshall (52:26)
I think you

are contributing to the system in the way that the system needs.

Alan Derek Utley (52:32)
Yeah.

This is where people get confused. Grace does not lower the standard.

John Marshall (52:38)
There we go. okay. Now now I’m now I’m happy.

Alan Derek Utley (52:39)
Grace does not Okay. Grace does not lower the standard.

Again, it’s a it’s not letting it go.

John Marshall (52:46)
Yeah.

Alan Derek Utley (52:47)
It’s not. I I I even had an employee once who said he messed up and we were talking about it. And he said, All right, I got it, boss, I got it. Give me some grace. And I said, I’ll give you grace, but we’re gonna talk about it. Like

John Marshall (53:00)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (53:00)
I I understand that it didn’t go the way it was supposed to go. Great. I don’t think you’re a bad person. You’re not stupid.

Because those are the things, those are the stories we tell ourselves. When we get in trouble, we do something wrong, suddenly we think everybody thinks that we’re bad at our jobs. We’re not. You just messed up. So let’s figure out what happened and let’s move forward. The the key is the pause and then getting curious. What you modeled earlier. Grace says,

John Marshall (53:24)
Mm. Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (53:27)
that didn’t go the way it supposed to go. It’s okay. Now let’s make it okayable.

Let’s move forward. Let’s figure out what happened and let’s make it better so this doesn’t happen again. And at some point, if you keep

John Marshall (53:40)
Yes.

Alan Derek Utley (53:40)
repeating the same problem, Grace says, I gotta find a new job for you. You’re not a bad person.

John Marshall (53:46)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (53:47)
This was just not the right job for you. You were a misfit. Let’s find you a better fit. And and Grace has boundaries.

John Marshall (53:52)
Yes.

Alan Derek Utley (53:53)
Grace has limits, man. It’s not just everybody gets whatever they want and they can mess up as much as they want. And you can’t be a bad person and be allowed to be a bad person. I’m gonna stop.

You I am my grace for myself is gonna set a limit. You cannot bully me, you cannot treat me that way. You know, that’s my grace that I’m giving myself in that moment. I I will not be treated like that, boss. Yeah. Sorry, I not you got me riled up here, man. This is

John Marshall (54:20)
Well this is what it this is what it’s all about, right? Because I mean this

is how this is how you fine tune your system, right? If it was if it was if it was something that like

couldn’t stand the test of questioning, then what what are you doing? But here you are speaking to all of the different facets of that grace can show up in and the systems that it can create within a team is kind of where I’m I’m interested now. Like I feel like we’ve we’ve pressure tested all of the things. Like we have we

Alan Derek Utley (54:55)
How does the

John Marshall (54:58)
we understand the hidden pressures. We understand that like grace is needed to facilitate these

conversations to get curious to get to a place where we can move forward together. So now we’re at this place where we can move forward together as a team. So like what within a team, like what changes in trust, psychological safety, and actually what changes

Alan Derek Utley (55:20)
Yeah, I’ll play.

John Marshall (55:23)
in performance when grace becomes habitual in a team?

Alan Derek Utley (55:28)
That is that is that’s what we’re trying to explore and experiment and discover. You know, gra Grace is new for me. I’ll I’ll tell I I won’t be able to give you any stats on it because I don’t have it yet, but what I envision is gonna happen is that the the ability for that team to perform at a higher level will be unlocked. Because it becomes a team that has the space to experiment.

It becomes a team that has the space to fail and have conversations about it and collaborate and and not feel like they’re gonna get written up. Man, is a human resources professional? I will tell you right now, I’m not a fan of corrective actions. And I know that’s gonna be an unfavorable opinion for a lot of my peers, but corrective actions are treated as discipline. And we’re adults, we don’t need to be disciplined.

Corrective actions should be what they were always intended to be. It’s it’s a way to correct the action. But instead it becomes, you know, first warning, second warning, third warning, and you’re out of here. And I do, you know, at some point someone is not good for the business and you need to find a safe, legal way to get them out. I get that. I get I get all that. But what you get is a team that has a a shorthand and is able to flow.

I think that’s the answer to your question. Is it’s a team that can flow together and do amazing things, unlock extraordinary performance, and achieve extraordinary results because they’re doing it every day. And it’s a team that knows how to play a different kind of card. You know, we all play the blame card, the shame card, the frame card, but these are teams that play the grace card and can pause and get curious and have conversations that make what they do.

Better.

John Marshall (57:26)
Mm.

I mean, what I’m hearing is it really comes down to creating more psychological safety. Like the more

Alan Derek Utley (57:36)
That’s it.

John Marshall (57:37)
people are willing to be themselves, contribute dissenting opinions, like engage in productive conflict, like gr that grace is an avenue for a psychologically safe environment within a team.

Alan Derek Utley (57:54)
It is. And I think to to really

you were going here I think already, but i what does this actually look like, right? Like it it I’ve had so many leaders who have said, Yes, we need more grace, but I also have the ones who say, No, no, not too much grace, right? It’s the same thing we’ve been talking about. But what did that actually look like in practice every day? What does a team that can operate through grace look like? And in the work that I’ve been trying to evolve is is to create actual tools that show how it shows up.

i there’s so many different kinds of scenarios, these these flashpoint moments every day that show up where the where the pressure shows up and you need to show up in a way that’s productive, grace fueled, not graceful, grace fueled, to make

John Marshall (58:46)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (58:47)
something better out of it.

And so y you know, take take the the conflict conversation where two people are butting heads and they’re disagreeing. I’m gonna ask you, how do you think grace can show up in that moment and get people out of a battle and into solutioning?

John Marshall (59:14)
take a step back. It’s like when you’re in in conflict, right, when you if you think of it literally, I’m putting my hand in front of my face for those of you that are listening. When you are this close to someone, you’re in

Alan Derek Utley (59:30)
Yeah.

John Marshall (59:30)
you’re leaning in, you’re in the heat of the the debate, right? Like all y what do you see? Like just their face. Right?

Alan Derek Utley (59:37)
Yeah.

John Marshall (59:39)
What do you what are you seeing? Just what they’re saying. It’s like literally and figuratively, Grace I would see is taking a step back and saying, Okay, what am I standing for here? What are you standing for? What’s valid in what I stand for? What’s valid in what you stand for?

And now let’s zoom out of our whole conversation and say what is the best thing for the team? What is the best thing for the organization? What is the best thing for our customers, clients? And let’s both speak from our vantage points, like what our our firm ground, and answer those questions together.

And maybe we’ll come up with the best way to move forward between what we’re saying or agree that one of our paths is the best way. Right. But I think it’s grace is literally and figuratively taking a step back to look at what I’m showing up with, what you’re showing up with, and what’s the bigger picture here? Like why are we even why is it even worth a conflict?

‘Cause we both have some positive outlook here. There there has to be. If it’s worth arguing about, there has to be some kind of productive productive intention on both of our parts. There should be at least.

Alan Derek Utley (1:01:09)
You make it sound so easy. No, it’s great.

John Marshall (1:01:09)
So long winded answer, but that’s what I that’s what I think.

Alan Derek Utley (1:01:14)
I think you’re right, and I love the way you t articulated it, and it it is something I saw play out in real time that’s weak. You know, conflicts occur all the time and it’s often between people who share resources but have conflicting goals. And

John Marshall (1:01:30)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:01:31)
one impacts the other. And I was sitting in a meeting and somebody announced a change that they were making to a room full of people, which I would never recommend, that impacted two people in the

Room and the two people in the room, you know, it’s like their heads were on a swivel. They look at each other, like, are you hearing this too? Or what is this happening right now? And and I could feel the battle lines being drawn, and I could feel, and then you hear the positioning, right? It no longer becomes solving, it becomes positioning, and we are taught to win, right? We are taught to get our own way, we are taught to defend our position, and we are taught sometimes.

Is to agree to disagree, just to get out of the conversation. But none of those ever actually solve the problem. And in this real-time moment,

None of them had the ability, the they were not equipped with the tools to use grace because they were stuck in their position and they were stuck in the hidden pressure of what they were gonna lose if they gave up their position. They were at war.

John Marshall (1:02:37)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:02:38)
And and it’s it’s sad when that happens because it becomes us versus us in those moments. And we lose sight of I’m shocked how many people lose sight of coworkers are co-workers.

They’re not the enemy. But we create these situations for ourselves because we get so wrapped up in what we are losing and in those hidden pressures. And so just to restate what you already said, Grace shows up in those moments by hitting the pause button or even pull playing the grace card. And by the way, I have a literal grace card right here that I give my clients.

It’s like I’m gonna play the grace card right now and if they had one they would have played it and they would have said, Alright, so let’s let’s pause and let’s figure out what’s making this moment feel not okay.

And what how am I showing up in this moment? It’s almost everything you already said. How am I showing up? How how am I and why am I getting stuck? And then what’s gonna help this situation be better without lowering the standards? And what shift do we need to make right now to get out of the traps that we’re in, to get out of it and get back to a collaborative space? That is how you use grace in those moments. It’s that intentional pausing, it’s the recognition of what’s going on.

On the story you’re telling yourself, recognizing and trying to name the pressures that you’re feeling, and then being intentional about what you do next. We are not intentional enough. We are constantly driving on autopilot. Default, we are on default mode all the time. I could keep going, but I’ll pause.

John Marshall (1:04:23)
this this is great. There’s I mean there’s just so much useful there’s there’s so many useful places where grace can show up and you know I love that you say that it’s this pause, you know, I’m very much

very deeply in into a mindfulness practice. And, you know, I do believe that I do believe that, you know, the vast majority of our interpersonal challenges are solved by creating distance between stimulus and response. Right. So I love that that’s a core of your framework here. But I’m also interested in the system too. So

You know, for for HR leaders listening right now, how should HR reinforce these kind of behaviors through, I don’t know, leader selection, development, performance systems, like how do you create a system that is graceful? Or grace fueled? Grace fueled. There we go.

Alan Derek Utley (1:05:38)
Well, I think there’s there’s a couple different ways that I think they could do that. The first is to scan the system that’s in place today and look for those contradictions. Look for those things that that keep you from having the kind of healthy culture that you want. I’ll give you just one of the most common examples that I see.

You know, you got those policies, those codes of conduct, employee handbooks, whatever you want to call it. And there’s a line in the code of conduct somewhere that says negativity in any form will result in disciplinary action up to and including termination.

So you have written toxicity into your system and you don’t even know it. You’ve just said you’re not allowed to have a different opinion, you’re not allowed to express your feelings, you’re not allowed to do anything that’s actually productive.

Unless you just do what we tell you. Just do what we tell you, essentially. So it starts there. And and I think there are four lenses that that all HR people, really business leaders who I think we call HR people, we should, need to look through. It there’s the there’s the business metrics, what are the actual things that we’re measuring, and do they align in a way

that actually support a healthy culture? Or are they costing us? There’s also the lens of the employee voice. The employees are telling you what’s working and what’s not working and you just gotta listen. And there are a variety of ways that you can do that. You can listen through employee surveys, engagement surveys, go online and read the reviews. you could also be more intentional about

skip level meetings, round table meetings, all these different things, but you actually have to listen, you have to be willing to not like what you hear, and you have to be willing to do something about it. You have

John Marshall (1:07:39)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:07:40)
to create grace in those moments. The the third lens is the the leadership impact, the actual people in the roles of leadership. And it’s about scanning the pound the the talent and the performance and the actual behaviors of those leaders are the decisions they make and the way

that they make them conducive with a healthy culture. And and then my favorite is the cultural norms lens.

Are we reinforcing the right kinds of behaviors with our incentive plans, with our processes, with our policies? You know, that’s the negativity in the policy example that I just gave you. So I think that’s that’s

John Marshall (1:08:24)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:08:24)
where you can start sort of at a at an abstract macro level, but then if you really truly want to create a grace-fueled culture, you teach it.

You add it to the core values. You make it a competency. You make it an expectation. And you let it become part of your language and your vocabulary. The the leaders that I work

John Marshall (1:08:43)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:08:44)
with, the workshops that I do, we have uncomfortable conversations in those workshops where we start to practice what it means to say the things that we’ve been all wanting to say out loud. You know, the things that we say in the hallway, or the text messages during the meetings, or the meeting the things we say in the meeting after the meeting, that we probably actually should.

John Marshall (1:09:03)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:09:04)
have

said in the meeting you know we have to learn to do that and but we have to learn the skill of grace and make it a habit and the the grace habits are 30 observable behavioral things that you can learn and these these these grace habits

are all born anecdotally from my experience, all my twenty-five years

John Marshall (1:09:31)
Mm-hmm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:09:31)
working in human resources and seeing it, what what works and what creates grace. But there’s not just thirty. There’s so many more than thirty, but thirty is a great place to start. And actually I wouldn’t even start with thirty. I would start with two. Start with two.

John Marshall (1:09:42)
Certainly. I was gonna say you’ll be lucky if anyone remembers three.

Alan Derek Utley (1:09:52)
So if you so if you go through one of my workshops, what you’ll get to do is take a a survival mode self-assessment. And it will reveal for you, and it’s not scientific, I’m not a science guy. You know, it’s all based on experiences, it’s based based behavioral. So you’ll take the assessment, you’ll answer honestly, and it’ll tell you what trap you might be in today. What survival mode trap you are leading from. And then I

you’ll learn the alternative. You’ll learn how to step out of that trap onto a different kind of a path, and then that’ll help you determine which kinds of habits you should start developing and start learning. So that’s that’s how you do it. Is that easy enough?

John Marshall (1:10:37)
Yeah, that’s a that’s a start. That’s a start. well, I mean I think I’m glad that you were able to address the the system level.

Right. And you know, what like those lenses feel like really the backbone of creating an aligned culture. Like are your systems aligned with your what you’re measuring and aligned with your training, aligned with what you are rewarding, incentivizing, promoting. And I think that’s you know, that really ultimately creates culture. Right? People look at who’s getting rewarded, how do they behave? Right.

when it comes when it comes down to it. Who’s getting promoted? How do they behave? Right. What are the priorities here? Because it’s like you can, you know, you can measure one thing, you can say that grace is important, but then if you promote the anti, right? If you promote the pressure creating, like, you know, survival mode exec, well that’s what people are going to believe is actually important. Right.

So I think with all of that aligned, you get to a place where you can actually create the culture that you want. So I mean, I think you I’m I really appreciated you sharing those lenses for folks to view the organization through. And, you know, again, this conversation, like we covered so much ground from the hidden pressures to

to grace, to the balance of accountability and acceptance and from the team to the organization to the self. But I’d love for you to just speak to the leader who might be recognizing themselves in this conversation. times when they’ve had hidden pressures that were driving, you know, a behavior maybe that’s just really not like them. But

Still toxic. What would be the first practice or closing word of wisdom you’d have for that particular person this week?

Alan Derek Utley (1:12:46)
first for closing my those things for the next like this one.

I I love that question. And I want them to know that they’re not toxic. It’s accidental. They’re not doing it on purpose. And I’m not I’m not talking to the person who is seeking to make things difficult for people every day because I truly believe

People want to come and do good work. And it’s because of that desire that they allow these hidden pressures to show up and drive them. And so I would say my advice is to pause, take a breath, and recognize where you want to be better and then have a conversation with a friend, somebody that you trust who can give you some honest input.

on what you’re doing and what’s not working and just get some honest advice from them. Talk to a friend, somebody who you think is safe, and just say the thing out loud that you’re feeling and let them respond. And then go from there.

John Marshall (1:13:58)
Mm.

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:00)
That’s just one thing. That’s

John Marshall (1:14:00)
And I appreciate that.

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:02)
one way to start, but it there’s so many different ways. I think there’s so many different moves that you can use to interrupt that pressure and to start making an intentional choice. I think that’s the key, John, is it’s make a ch intentional choice to start doing something different and you start by finding out what the thing is that’s not working.

John Marshall (1:14:22)
Finding the thing. So taking time to reflect, pause, and choose a different path. Unpack it with someone that you trust.

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:30)
Yeah.

John Marshall (1:14:32)
Hmm. Well, where can listeners connect with you? What would you like them to know most about Call Trade Advisory?

Alan Derek Utley (1:14:43)
Yeah. I think that I would love for people to find me on LinkedIn because I talk about Grace every day and it there there’s stories from my life, there are stories from work, stories from workshops. so please do. And I’ve got a newsletter called The Grace Period. You named it and didn’t even realize it.

John Marshall (1:15:03)
Nice.

Alan Derek Utley (1:15:04)
Yeah. So come subscribe to the newsletter. Let’s talk on LinkedIn. You can also find me on my website, Alan Derek Utley.

dot com where you can reach out to me and we could talk about working with you, bring in a workshop to your team, do a keynote for your conference. but if if I if I had to be really honest, I would love for people to find me on TikTok where my work

directly tackling the toxic boss. It’s it’s a little bit of a different angle on it, but I’m out there talking right to the toxic bosses, telling them what they’re doing wrong or what they need to do better. So come check out. Alan Derek

John Marshall (1:15:41)
Interesting. All right.

Yeah, I’m gonna I’m gonna check that out. And and listeners, we will have that all linked in the show notes is LinkedIn, TikTok, and newsletter websites. So if you want to connect with Alan, please just click on the link, schedule the consultation. Like he’s right here speaking and he will speak with you. So please don’t hesitate to follow up if you feel like

Grace is something that you need to unlock your team, your organization, or yourself, really. With that, thank you so much for listening, for tuning into the present professional. Once again, I am here for you. We are here for you. So please, one thing you can do for us is wherever you’re listening to this show right now, go ahead and click that subscribe button.

And if you want to be extra sweet, go ahead and leave a review and let us know how you feel. Okay? Thank you so much again. We’ll see you next time on another episode of The Present Professional.