John Marshall (00:32)

Welcome back to the Present Professional. Today, we have a special guest with us, Dr. Sohee Jun, a leadership coach, organizational psychologist, and best-selling author who spent more than two decades helping ambitious women navigate the internal and external pressures of leadership. Her books, The Aligned Mindset and Mommy Tracked, challenged women to examine the definitions of success they have inherited, move through fear.

Build careers and lives that are more authentic, sustainable, and fully their own. And today, we’re exploring what authentic power actually looks like, why success can still feel misaligned even when it looks impressive from the outside, and how leaders can pursue high performance without sacrificing themselves in the process. Sohee welcome to the present professional.

Dr. Sohee Jun (01:29)

Thank you, John. It is a pleasure to be here.

John Marshall (01:33)

Of course, of course. And just to to kick us off here, you work with highly accomplished women who, right, from the outside are appearing to succeed, have everything going for them, and you know but something is not quite representative from that on the inside. Right. So what are what are

these women experiencing internally that other people might not see.

Dr. Sohee Jun (02:06)

Yeah, I I love that question. It’s interesting because to your point, despite the outward achievements, the many mountains they have climbed, the milestones, the accolades, and no matter how many people look up to them, whether they know that or not, the inside stuff, you know, often brings up.

Gremlins about not being enough, not having done enough, not

being authentic, not being the shoulds they’ve been told they should be. So there’s a lot of noise that goes on on the inside,

of which I help I help them get clarity really about who they are in this season and how to make movement towards being aligned with who they are.

John Marshall (03:01)

Hmm. The shoulds. That’s that’s a big thing that comes up, I’d say for re regardless, regardless man, woman, it’s like there’s one thing I always say is, you know, like don’t don’t should all over yourself. Right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (03:18)

It’s true,

yes. And it’s hard to escape. Like what I say is like as a human being on this planet, we are shoulded all over from a lot of different sources. And the work for outer success is to get clear and remove the shoulds that don’t align with who you are and amplifying your unique strengths. And that’s been my journey as well.

John Marshall (03:44)

Hmm. Well, you brought it up and I’m glad that you did. I’d love to hear a little bit more about like your journey and what led you into specifically this work that you’re so passionately in pursuit of, supporting.

Dr. Sohee Jun (04:02)

Yeah, you know, I I I’ve been doing this work for 25 years and I never tire of it. You know, the leadership challenges seem to shift. So I I say it’s an honor to be doing what I’m doing. And it wasn’t by design. You know, I am an immigrant and the term I use is the bridge generation. So my children, I have three, are first generation and I am an immigrant, of which the bridge is like how I’m trying to bring

In all the good parts of being a South Korean, born and like born in South Korea and and being in the US and living to those expectations and norms as well, and passing on the best parts to my children. So, you know, I as an immigrant was

Deeply in the should of doing the classic, you know, do good in school. And my parents worked a lot of different jobs. And I did a story and a podcast story around my lived experience of helping my parents clean offices. You know, they at that time they were doing all they could to really make ends meet. So sometimes that meant going to the offices with them to clean. And that I think is really important to share because.

Because it was a moment for me that I really remember in which John, I was like, How do people get these offices? Like literal corner offices that I was cleaning. And I was I just remember being six or seven, not six, but like maybe around nine or ten, maybe a little older, the memory’s a little fuzzy, but just being in that office thinking, wow.

What did they do to get there? And I think that was an important imprint because it fueled in me, really also, you know, propelled by my parents’ desire for me to get

the education that they came here for us to get.

And doing all the schooling and and my mom was not a tiger mom. You know, I’m South Korean and we have this lore, right? Like, you must be a tiger mom. She wasn’t. She was too busy working. But what she did tell me was get the education no matter what. That was like priority number one. So as the good girl, I went to college and I said, listen, I guess I’ll be a medical doctor and then

John, here’s where the plot twist comes in. I was like, I I cannot do this. It’s one I I sucked.

At sciences. I mean, I could do it, trust me, but like it didn’t give me joy. Even before the term was a thing, I was like, this is not giving me any joy. And it wasn’t until I found the organizational psychology course in my senior year, I said, this is it. It’s like one of those pivotal moments where you you just know, and those moments are rare and far and few between. But it was that moment I was like, he is talking about psychology, something that I’m super innately interested in, and doing that in the workplace. Like, I want that.

So I followed that juice and that energy, which led me into a PhD program, which, you know, I felt like I checked off the marks. I was like, okay, I’m getting an advanced degree. My parents should

John Marshall (07:14)

Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (07:15)

be assuaged by that. And even though they didn’t know what the heck organizational psychology was, because this was we’re talking the nineties and

John Marshall (07:24)

Yep,

it wasn’t doctor, lawyer, engineer, so what was it?

Dr. Sohee Jun (07:28)

I know

exactly. What kind of doctor? You’re getting a PhD? Okay. So

John Marshall (07:32)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (07:33)

it propelled me into this career of which I started out kind of excited and also unsure because there wasn’t a clear path at that time. It was, you know, you can be a

a consultant and go around and do the consultant life or go internal and and pave away for yourself. And I chose the internal route of which was the right thing for me, working at a lot of different companies doing everything, organizational development, talent development, leadership development. And then I found even more juice and energy around the coaching piece, which is where I dove just all in. Yeah.

John Marshall (08:10)

Mhm.

That that resonates. Yeah, coaching, it’s it’s interesting ’cause coaching found me at a point in my corporate career as well. And just like leaned

Dr. Sohee Jun (08:23)

really?

John Marshall (08:25)

leaned all the way into coaching. Like different route, but you know, like you said, when you discover that thing it’s beyond just it’s beyond logic where it’s this, you know

heart centered drive to like connect deeply with this body of work. That’s how I also felt about coaching. So it’s beautiful

Dr. Sohee Jun (08:44)

Yeah.

John Marshall (08:45)

to meet you here.

Dr. Sohee Jun (08:46)

Yeah, agree. And I think I’m speaking for you now, and if it’s not true for you, of course we can unpack this, but I do think it’s my deeply curious nature. Even as

a child I remember just being super curious about people about my inner world. And when I

was able to use that one-on-one in the corporate world. And I just felt like all of the the planets line, like, okay, if I can help leaders using my superpowers and my deep curiosity and the power of the question, coupled that with like the energy that you bring to each session, which you know, John, it’s like, it’s magic can happen there.

John Marshall (09:28)

Certainly, certainly. And yes, you spoke for me. Deep curi my childhood, everything even today is fueled by deep curiosity. Like catch me you know, catch me at one AM on a Friday when I should definitely be catching up on sleep, you know,

Dr. Sohee Jun (09:45)

Ha ha

John Marshall (09:46)

watching some YouTube video about, I don’t know, astrophysics or something random. So

Dr. Sohee Jun (09:52)

Yeah.

John Marshall (09:53)

I mean, yeah, deep deep curiosity about the the human experience. But

And this so this curiosity, right, led you to like follow your heart to working with right the most unpredictable thing we can. Just the the human psyche, right? The place where you can have infinite curiosity. And you come to this place of of alignment. Like you speak you speak a lot about this this term and

Dr. Sohee Jun (10:26)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (10:28)

And it carries it carries a lot of weight in a lot of different contexts, right? Alignment scales from the individual to the team to the organization to society at large. But when you use the word alignment, like at the individual level, like what exactly is being brought into alignment in the work that you do?

Dr. Sohee Jun (10:53)

Mm, yes. So at the individual level, and by the way, I think this is I always say I coach from lived experience, and it’s been my work, my own personal work. And I think this quote comes to mind, which I saw this quote maybe 15 years ago now, and I just it it left an imprint. And it’s one that I think really encapsulates what it means to be in alignment at the individual level. And it’s

Gandhi himself, the wise, wise Gandhi, and he said, happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony. And when we really, really like lean into what that means, it helps us look at okay.

What am I what am I thinking right now? Again, the mindset piece that I’m so passionate about and wrote about in my second book. Your mindset.

And then how is it helping you show up in the way that you want to? The way that you speak about the what you say you want, except there’s all this internal tension about how you want to show up in the stories that we tell, the tell ourselves, the the load emotionally, and just all the stuff that we carry around that gets in the way of being in alignment. and then it and then it makes us act.

in not in congruence. So I I love saying this quote because it just is such a succinct way of saying like how are we mindful of what we think? Because it helps us shape up in the show up in the way that we want to. And then are you saying the things that are true for you? Right. So all of those things have to I think exist to be in alignment.

John Marshall (12:54)

Beautiful. Beautiful. I I had to sit with that quote for a moment and like really internalize it, integrate it. And that feels like alignment. So what you think, what you say, and what you do are incongruence.

Is there any particular order that a listener should be thinking that? I mean, I know you mentioned mindset to start, but can your actions and your words influence right your mindset, or vice versa? And I guess in a directional way,

Dr. Sohee Jun (13:37)

Mm.

John Marshall (13:38)

is there some priority that you place on what you think, say, or do?

Dr. Sohee Jun (13:43)

Yeah, absolutely.

And it is in that order. Look, I’ve in writing the second book, The Aligned Mindset, I did a lot of research. And that research was made up of going back to the women that I coach who are highly successful in their own ways to really get under the hood of, okay, well, how do you get there? How do you navigate challenges? And what I found was that underneath it all was their mindset. And so that question of where

Do

you start? If anyone were to really be interested and want to get more in alignment, it is to create awareness around their thoughts because it shapes how we show up and it’s one for one. So if entering into this podcast, I was thinking, man, I’m so nervous. I’m not gonna say things right, I’m gonna sound so small and like an idiot. Whatever that narrative is, it one for one will make me shrink.

In this conversation with you. It will diminish my energy, my participation, my interest in your questions, how present I am with you. Literally, I’ve seen it one for one in my clients and just in the work

of writing the book. So many stories of how mindset shapes how you show up. So

John Marshall (15:06)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (15:07)

How do we get aware of our mindset? It is to slow down and get curious about your inner narrative, right? Mindfulness is just a fancy term of saying, get aware. Literally, just be aware of your inner dialogue, your triggers, your strengths, your opportunities. That’s how it plays out in the corporate sense.

John Marshall (15:29)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (15:30)

at the individual level, it’s you know, how aware of you.

are you of your thoughts and your inner monologue? Is it helpful? Is it really supportive of how you want to show up?

John Marshall (15:44)

Mm.

I always find that there’s some trigger here that or a catalyst I would say that gets people to say, Maybe I should start looking at myself. Maybe I should start looking at the inner narrative. And it’s typically some I don’t know, piece some piece of feedback that jars them, something that’s a counter to their ego or identity that kind of jars them into

Am I who I think I am? Should I maybe I should start looking at that? Or some life altering experience or just some deep forced slowing down that kind of just causes you to look internally.

Dr. Sohee Jun (16:32)

Pandemic anyone? Yeah.

John Marshall (16:36)

exactly. Great catalyst for for the for self-awareness work. But what

What would you what would you say to someone that’s listening that’s not convinced yet that they need to spend this time diving deep into their narrative and that needs to I don’t know, take an assessment, work with a coach, whatever?

Like what do you say to the person that’s that’s not convinced yet that, you know, I I know myself, like I navigate the world just fine. so before something that’s life altering, what what could you say to them that maybe gets them, okay, I’ll take a look?

Dr. Sohee Jun (17:15)

Yeah. So I think an interesting place from that perspective would be to just play a fun game and see if what you think is actually true.

So what I mean by that is, you know, survey if it’s in the workplace your trusted colleagues and peers and say, hey, you know, how am I showing up? I’m really just curious and wanna get some thoughts on how you think I’m doing in terms of X, Y, and Z. In terms of leadership, or, you know, how how was even just as granular as how was that I in that meeting?

You know, was I articulate? Did I show up a certain way, the way that I was intending to? And by getting feedback, which is a core part of coaching,

it really gives you something to work with. Now, whether or not that shifts you into, you know, my gosh, I need some development here is really kind of a nice to have. It’s more just about are you aware of what others perceive of you? And

Or are you closed off and just kind of ensconced in your own world of like, I think I’m doing great and not aware of the impact that you have on others and how you show up and the energy that you bring?

John Marshall (18:33)

Mm. See, there’s there’s a person that I’m thinking of, an archetype that I’m thinking of where you but you’re delivering results. Like

Dr. Sohee Jun (18:48)

Mm.

John Marshall (18:49)

I’m you know, like the numbers are there, I’m I’m doing well.

You know, I don’t necessarily care what others think about me because I’m you know, because I’m performing and that’s what my company values or you know, that’s or maybe even they’re behaving that way because they think that’s what their company values or something. you know, why should why should they be interested if the if the fiscal results are there, but you know, maybe their colleagues could have something to share with them that would round them out or provide an opportunity for insight.

Why should

Dr. Sohee Jun (19:25)

Yeah.

John Marshall (19:25)

they care?

Dr. Sohee Jun (19:26)

Why should they care? Because literally those are like that’s every single person that comes into coaching. Here’s why. either they come to that realization of like, man, I’ve gotten some feedback. I need to work on that. That’s one avenue. The other choose your own adventure is your managers like John

You need coaching. Here’s why. You’re technically great. I know you’re making the numbers. You’re our best salesperson. Except I can’t put you in that meeting because they think you’re a fill in the blank. Or the people above me, they’re not a fan of yours. Or maybe all of this is true. Or your peers think you are a bulldog in a China shop. Is that the phrase? Or a a bull in a China shop, excuse me. So

John Marshall (20:09)

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (20:12)

Either way, what I see for those that come into coaching, they have stalled in their career. And it is more oftentimes than not because they are not leaning into the personal development side. Their their skills of relating, their the way they do the work, not the outcome.

John Marshall (20:34)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (20:34)

The how it’s it’s done, really. Sure, you make the numbers, but are you doing it in a way that

Triggers everyone? Are you going against the culture of the company

and doing that? Are you, you know, making a mess everywhere you go in terms of relationships? Because here’s what I love to say, John, and I wonder how you feel about this. In this day of technology and how much we can do, it still comes down to relationships. A number one thing of derailing somebody’s career, if they’re not able to build relationships, manage relationships.

And know how they are showing up in those relationships.

John Marshall (21:15)

Hundred percent. I mean it’s the the essence of Humessence, my my company, right? It’s the I mean, that’s what that’s what we’re focused on is that specific, right, interpersonal dynamic. But what I’m what I’m hearing in your answer is like to the person that thinks like, well, I’m delivering results, you know, okay, let me just keep keep my head down and focus on delivering results, like why do I need to do this you know, slow down

Mindfulness venture, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (21:47)

Yeah.

John Marshall (21:48)

Well, it’s it’s because that it’ll catch up with you, right? So it’s like maybe you’ll you’re continuing to succeed until your high achievement gets to a place where you can no longer succeed in a vacuum, and

Dr. Sohee Jun (22:04)

Mm.

John Marshall (22:05)

it requires you to have a multiplicative effect. So when you have that requirement, if you haven’t done this work.

You’ll learn that you need to do the work whenever you

Dr. Sohee Jun (22:20)

absolutely.

John Marshall (22:21)

don’t whenever you get passed over or you don’t get the opportunity. Does that did I hear that right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (22:26)

absolutely. There’s a a study that came out recently from Burning Glass. And it’s this concept of the mid-career stall. And that they’re seeing enormous numbers of people in their mid-career not get promoted in the they time bounded it. Like if it hasn’t happened or you haven’t advanced within the five-year window.

it really has to come down to okay, how there’s structural things, sure, right? There’s only so many promotions to go around, so we have to recognize that. And also there are things that the people that aren’t getting promoted are not doing. So, you know, factor those things in and you gotta wonder, okay, if I wanna advance is what I’m doing in terms of meeting the numbers enough.

John Marshall (23:25)

Hmm. So it it just it comes down to their emotional intelligence, just to kind of group it group it together, I guess, is the like the thing that’s I guess across that data, I would assume the gap when it comes to the folks that are stuck beyond that five year mark is the like lack of emotional intelligence.

Dr. Sohee Jun (23:51)

Yeah, you know, we work in systems. We don’t work just by ourselves day in and day out.

If you’re in a company, you’re full and surrounded with people, whether you work remotely or not. That’s not the point. It’s the work gets done through people. And so that is what is going to catapult your career, how you’re perceived, how people like working with you. Less about like, but like do you leave them feeling like it’s a good interaction?

And yeah, so I would say it’s it definitely catches up with them.

John Marshall (24:28)

Okay, so back to back to alignment, right? Say you’re you’re getting you you’re aware, you’re starting to pay attention to your narratives, you you are s noticing where when you’re out of congruence, right?

So you’re starting, you’re working with you, or maybe some resource that you recommend to start noticing these areas of of incongruence. So I’m s I’m hearing that there’s like a period of listening, right? There’s a period of noticing the narrative. Where is it coming up? Like this this listening period. So then once you get past the the listening period, what are some of the ways that you help people like more

practical action or strategies to okay, you’ve listened or noticed the areas of incongruence, but what are the strategies to get back in congruence, to move towards that? So what’s after the listening phase in your path towards

Dr. Sohee Jun (25:32)

yeah.

John Marshall (25:32)

alignment?

Dr. Sohee Jun (25:33)

Yeah. When a client works with me, we get really quickly into workshopping. They’re pressing current challenges. So one of the most valuable pieces is having that person that can that’s neutral.

And also aware enough of the industry and/or role or both to be able to shine a light on what possibilities exist that you hadn’t explored before by way of action. So sometimes it looks like giving actual, like here are some things I suggest, you make it your own, or you decide if you want to act on that, some actual tips, my suggestions, or role-playing certain scenarios so that the leader feels more confident in how to move.

move

forward in a situation that might feel very complex and fraught with tension. And the other thing too, John, I’m sure you’re seeing this in the companies that you’re working with and with leaders, there is so much uncertainty. Like people are reactive times 10.

reacting and there’s just a swirl of capital U uncertainty. I mean VUCA amplified. And

John Marshall (26:46)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (26:47)

the value, the clarity

in the session is really okay, bring in that challenge.

Let’s create some awareness and then let’s actually equip you with some different or even options if they feel that they didn’t have options before. But it’s like creating that toolkit that feels really doable in an actual scenario. So I don’t like say bring in let’s make stuff up. I’m not a fan of making things up. It’s like what’s what are you actually pressed with right now?

John Marshall (27:21)

Hm. So it’s it’s less about, okay, we listened, here’s the narrative, let’s rewrite it philosophically or abstractly. It’s more about, okay, we’ve noticed the narrative that you might be applying to X your existence, right? But let’s let’s

play alignment into a specific scenario. Like let’s ground

Dr. Sohee Jun (27:45)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (27:46)

this in your reality. Like how are you approaching this from a state of congruence? Like what are your options there to respond in a way that is aligned with who you are, what you think?

Right, in a way that you can say and do what’s in alignment there. So you actually play it out in the specific scenario itself. And I find that coaching is a lot about going from a place of this is just the way I handle things or this is the only option to expanding that to what are the options. So you I know I heard you mention like

giving options, right,

Dr. Sohee Jun (28:24)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (28:25)

of ways that you can move forward here. And I find that that’s a lot. Most cases of coaching is expanding like the client’s mind from like tunnel vision to like multiple perspectives or different options, moving from black and white thinking to what’s in the gray and exploring that.

Dr. Sohee Jun (28:46)

Yeah. Yeah, be yes, John, because what’s required of leadership these days, no matter at what level, whether it’s frontline leadership or, you know, at the top of the totem pole of which most of my clients sit there, it’s it’s this ability to be in the gray and to quickly take in a lot of different perspectives and then acting

Taking a microaction incongruence with the way that you want to show up. So, yes, I would say most people live in this or that option A or option B, or maybe no option, they feel stuck, like I said previously. It’s about opening up the aperture and saying, okay, well, what’s possible to you if what hadn’t we explored before? And

the parallel tracks of that in your real scenario, here’s what it could look like, what are what are you thinking, what do you desire, what’s the outcome you’d like, exploring all of those together, which makes it super dynamic and one that isn’t effective if you do it alone.

John Marshall (29:51)

Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

this ex generative conversation where right things just emerge like you have someone because it’s not even just you have someone observing

and providing feedback. It’s it’s like you’re you’re co-regulating, right? Like you are behaving differently. Things are more emerging from your sub and conscious mind that might not emerge outside of a conversation like coaching. So

Dr. Sohee Jun (30:22)

Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (30:24)

I I really

I really

don’t think that there is a there’s a replacement for like the generative space that coaching provides. So I agree I’m a huge, huge proponent. But

Dr. Sohee Jun (30:37)

It’s

that and if what I’ll add there is it’s the ability to actually call it out in the moment. So I’ll take client X. So there’s an actual client I’m working with where the person

over talks and talks over people as the feedback sh was shared and is very much in the mindset of touting their achievements and no matter what space they’re in. And it actually happened with me in session. So as a coach, if you’re present and aware and you are deeply like in the session, it is upon the coach to call out what’s happening.

So

John Marshall (31:23)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (31:23)

there’s the juice right there that you don’t get in doing that yourself or asking a friend, hypothetically. It’s the real me of saying, I just wanted to share something with you that I’m I’m observing, John. it was hard to get a word in. You were talking over me. And having that dialogue, which is where the learning happens.

John Marshall (31:49)

I agree. I agree. It takes sometimes you have to, you know, you have to challenge your client, right? You have

Dr. Sohee Jun (31:55)

yes.

John Marshall (31:55)

to tell him right, you know, tell him once you develop the relationship, it becomes a little easier. I’ve had a client just just last week where he brought he brought something he brought something to me that was more of like the way it was the way he responded to his boss’s email or something like that.

And like the way that he handled disseminating that information to his team and he kind of laid out what happened versus kind of what was rubbing him the wrong way. And it it just got to the point in the session where, you know, I just asked him, like

I think you know what answer or what approach is aligned with who you are and the leader you want to be, and you’re asking me for my opinion to confirm what you already believe. Like what’s true about that, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (32:48)

Yeah, confirmation bias.

John Marshall (32:52)

You know, and he was essentially like, Okay, maybe. And I’m like, Well, I’m not gonna give you that because you already know what’s in alignment with you. So you’re welcome.

Dr. Sohee Jun (33:03)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (33:05)

Right. Right. Like he already he already knew, but I I had to the easy thing would have been to say, like, yes, it seems like that, like this way is more aligned with who you are and this works for you. Right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (33:17)

That

sounds like a a chat GPT response, by the way.

John Marshall (33:20)

Exactly. Yes.

certainly.

Dr. Sohee Jun (33:24)

Which I mean, that’s a whole nother conversation. And that is the work of a one a coach that’s very aware has done I think their own work to create

groundedness and I bring my lived experience and I know you you do too, having led teams myself, I I I get the challenges and especially those of women in in today’s workforce. So I bring all of that into the mix, which is why it’s a beautiful, I think, scientific dance, if you will, because also it’s grounded in theories.

John Marshall (34:47)

Certainly. I mean we could spend a whole episode on unpacking all of that and

Dr. Sohee Jun (34:51)

I know

John Marshall (34:51)

the theories under that right. But I wanna marry what we’ve been talking about about alignment with another concept we see in your work is authentic power. And yeah, first I’d love for you to explain to the listeners like to what authentic power really means and how it’s

supported or or even s or even like completely tied to alignment.

Dr. Sohee Jun (35:25)

Yeah, yeah. I will use this example, which is that most of the female clients I work with, you know, some version of this exists, which is I need to work on my executive presence. And you know, it’s a and you you had a reaction right there. And the

John Marshall (35:47)

yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (35:48)

the core question for me is okay, so what stripping or

the word is really unpacking what they’ve learned, seen, been told about what executive presence looks like.

Let’s first create some awareness there and then peel the layers and pull the threads on who are you? So if I’m, let’s use me as an example, Sohee, who are you as a leader? What does that version look like?

When we take off the layer of performing, the layer of people pleasing, the layer of what we think we should do, going back to that term. And

John Marshall (36:35)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (36:36)

who is Sohee as a leader at her most authentic? And it might take

a long time for that to crystallize, and that’s the work in session.

John Marshall (36:48)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (36:48)

And sometimes

it’s not. It’s, you know, I I want to share my perspective freely. I I have a lot I want to say. I just feel like I can’t say it. Or you know, I wanna stop being so nervous and so judgy of myself. I feel like everyone’s judging me when I’m at a committee meeting or, you know, presenting to the board or whatever that looks like. It’s helping them anchor into their unique strengths.

Really grounding them in that, and that it’s okay to be who they are. Despite the, you know, they might see so-and-so getting accolades or you know, all of the promotions or praise for whoever that person is is and what they’re doing. Forget that. Let’s let’s be here in who you are. Remove some of the comparisonitis and

John Marshall (37:37)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (37:38)

By, I’m saying just a lot, I feel like a lot of terms that are so out there, but really it is about the work of bringing out and amplifying who they are so that they could be in alignment. Because here’s the story: I just before this session, John, I was in a coaching session with a client, and part of the conversation was: okay, so who are you? What does that look like? And how can we

How can we help you feel confident that that’s enough? Right? Instead of being performative or who you’ve been told you should be.

John Marshall (38:21)

So I’m hearing there’s a little bit of like the demystifying this narrative that you build around the executive present archetype in your mind and saying instead of being that to achieve executive presence, it’s like what does true presence mean?

for you client look like. So who you are and bringing that authentic presence to the table will actually provide

you more personal power in the conversation than it would becoming that archetype. Am

Dr. Sohee Jun (39:04)

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (39:06)

I hearing that correctly?

Dr. Sohee Jun (39:07)

Yes, you are. So are there certain technical skills that we can all up our game around? Certainly. Being more articulate, perhaps learning how to speak better. Sure. Table stakes. And then it’s really about this phrase and I love quotes. I remember quotes a lot just around

Leadership. And this one is by Maya Angelo. And she said, people don’t remember what you say or do. It’s how you make them feel. And I feel that that’s so aligned with leadership because the core tenets that I coach leaders around is: do you make your team or the people you’re interacting with or the person, do you make them feel seen, heard, and valued?

So it’s less about getting into the weeds of the work or arguing who did what. It’s more about lifting up.

And now orienting to okay, who am I? How do I help people feel seen, heard, and valued? Because that’s what people remember. I mean, if you if I think about the best members in my career, and probably for you too, it I don’t necessarily remember, my gosh, so and so was my best boss because they spoke the best. It’s wow, they they believed in me. They really made me s feel valued.

John Marshall (40:34)

Mm-hmm.

The way they made me feel. Now this I always come back when it anytime executive presence gets brought up, I always tie it back to the

the nervous system, right? And and co-regulation. So when you say make make me feel I think you’d be really interested in this work if you’re not already deep into it. But polyvagal theory.

Dr. Sohee Jun (41:03)

I’ve heard of it.

John Marshall (41:03)

And

the in the concept of co-regulation. So I I I genuinely believe that executive presence is how well you help others regulate their nervous system in times of in times of challenge or or crisis, which is just another way of saying how you make them feel, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (41:21)

Yeah.

John Marshall (41:22)

It’s like when you feel seen, valued, like you you’re you’re you’re present, you’re you’re comfortable, you’re at ease with the challenge that we’re facing, right?

It’s like that’s where I usually see and when I bring this up to clients, like the people that you probably think have the most executive presence are the people that helped you feel at ease in the midst of a crisis or chaos. Right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (41:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I

deeply resonate with that. Absolutely. And now I’m gonna dive deeper into that that topic.

John Marshall (41:57)

think I think you’ll really, really enjoy the work, but but to but to tie it into your your work and the and the frameworks of like between alignment and authentic presence is like in order to regulate your nervous system, like in order to do it, whether you say it’s how you make you feel or regulate others’ nervous system, it doesn’t matter, like you have to be in a place where

you can regulate your own nervous system where you’re comfortable in your

own skin. And I I think like it’s just tying all of this together for me where like authentic presence captures and authentic power captures all of everything we just said.

Dr. Sohee Jun (42:39)

a thousand percent. Yes. I love that. and where I’m going in my mind is, you know, that’s what the work has been and why it’s been so deep with the women, because they’re so and I’m I’m of course generalizing and it is true too, both can exist that

it’s more of a service role. Like I wanna do things for you, for my team, I want to do it for my boss, for my clients, for my family. And then literally, even if they’re on the list, probably not, it’s it’s that work. Like I one of the questions that I start off my coaching sessions with is okay, what word or words describe how you feel?

Because again, it’s getting back to that premise of mindfulness and awareness and helping them get below the neck, right? Embodied leadership. What are we feeling

John Marshall (43:35)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (43:37)

to help us co-regulate ourselves? Starts from a place of awareness. Like, okay, now I’m getting circular, but you get the point. It’s can you put words to what you’re feeling? And it it sometimes catches people off guard. They’re like, wow, hmm.

Gotta think about that. Again, the whole thinking thing. No, no, no. Dip into your body. How are you feeling?

John Marshall (43:55)

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

I mean ’cause we value logic, right? We value head intelligence, like not in more just capitalist West in general, versus right, heart intelligence. And

And the thing is, is like in order to get to a place where you can be aligned and you know and authentically present and empower, you have to be able to understand and articulate how you’re feeling. Because it’s it’s not that, you know, when you’re regulated and you have all this you have this profound authentic executive presence, right? It’s not that you don’t have feelings. Right. It’s not that nothing affects you and you’re no

longer triggered. It’s just you are acutely aware of

the body sensations that like bring about this non-presence.

Dr. Sohee Jun (44:53)

Yeah.

John Marshall (44:53)

So you’re

able to to manage them. So I think what you’re saying is when you’re working with your clients through this and that profound way to enter a question of specifically how to describe how they feel, like even that act right there in session with you is getting them more in tune with the noticing that requires for them to be able to self-manage and be present, regardless

Dr. Sohee Jun (45:17)

Mm.

John Marshall (45:18)

of like the stakes, the crisis, the things that are going on, like starts with that.

One question.

Dr. Sohee Jun (45:24)

It does. And it’s a simple and I think a really profound one. And thank you for illuminating that, John. It’s like I think it’s as you’re probably seeing too, there’s so much un like chaos, uncertainty, as I said before, that really untethers people. In most of the client the clients that come from the entertainment industry currently.

There’s, you know, mergers, there’s layoffs, there’s teams being merged, there’s people thinking about retirement quicker than they thought, or all sorts of organizational upheaval. And so this work feels really pressing right now from a coach’s standpoint, just to help people tap into grounding themselves so that they’re they don’t then

leak it onto and react and really ruin relationships, which I think at the end of the day is the majority of our regrets.

John Marshall (46:29)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so let’s let’s talk about some of the things that that get in the way of authentic presence and and alignment. Because this this conversation brings up something I just experienced with a client maybe two weeks ago. He he was

We’re talk talking about like he wants to get this again, executive presence. I want to be able to like bring my ideas to the table, like speak confidently, all of this stuff. Be and he said, right, because this is the feedback that I’ve been getting and the gap between like me getting this promotion, right? And it came down to that he was feeling like is not enough, right? Feeling like he was passed over.

feeling like so in order to feel good about myself, I need this promotion. So he’s like, let me attack the presence that I need in order to get this promotion. And I kind of presented to him this catch 22 of that it’s interesting that like the the need

For the promot for the promotion to be directly tied with your need to feel good about yourself is the exact reason why you can’t bring confidently bring your voice to the table. Right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (47:57)

Mm,

yes.

John Marshall (47:59)

So it’s like your so your path to your your motivator for executive presence is the thing that’s going to not give you executive presence that will lead to your promotion. So like this I need to feel good about this promotion need to feel good about myself. First, it’s sourcing feeling good about yourself from somewhere else so that you can bring your confidently bring your idea.

to the table without fear of the repercussions and outcome, which is your executive presence, that will lead to your promotion. So until you can uncouple the

Until you can uncouple the feeling of being enough or feeling good about myself being tied to the promotion, it’s going to be difficult to take social risk, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (48:52)

Yeah.

John Marshall (48:53)

To be authentically present and present your ideas

and those things. So so it’s been so ever since that conversation and even before, I’ve been like really

curious about all of the things that can get in the way from authentic power, authentic presence. And there was that one belief, but I’m curious, like in all of your work with all of the women that you’ve worked with and very high powered situations, positions, what are the things that get in the way of their authentic power?

Dr. Sohee Jun (49:27)

When they are too tied to an outcome.

That’s it. Honestly, I’ll just be very direct with it. When we are so spun up on that outcome, whether it’s a I want that promotion or I want people to rate me highly, whatever that outcome is, or I want to win that project, or I want to win that thing. Strip away your authenticity right there. That’s the formula. and it’s not to say you can’t desire an outcome.

But really like change the lens with which that takes over. Right? You can have a goal in mind, certainly, of course. Have the goal and the desire. And hold it loosely. Like there’s no other way to say it than just like loosen the core.

Around it a little bit. Otherwise it becomes a transaction. And w in the scenario that you are describing with your client, it’s to me the word that came up as you were speaking about it was transactional. Like I’m gonna do that so I get that.

John Marshall (50:37)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (50:38)

Literally the definition of being inauthentic. In my

John Marshall (50:42)

Ha ha.

Dr. Sohee Jun (50:44)

terms.

John Marshall (50:46)

Right. No, I

I I agree. and it’s but it’s just in those in those thought experiments, like right, he kind of paused and really hit him like, Right. So then the like the the the the cushy work of like feeling good about myself from somewhere else is now tied to this like really material outcome, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (51:13)

Yeah.

John Marshall (51:13)

So it’s like then people get get interested of like maybe I do need to rewrite my my narrative. You know. So when it comes to the outcome, it’s funny, it like it always for some reason I feel like all of my conversations always come back to these Eastern philosophical principles of right.

releasing attachment to the outcome, right? The path to enlightenment. But really it’s the the path to to being yourself, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (51:53)

Yeah.

I I’ll share a personal story there. you know, there was a point in my life, probably two years ago, when I was so, so tied to the outcome of of l the second book, The Aligned Mindset. And I didn’t know it at the time, but I was literally like

When I’m focused, I mean, of course, that’s partly what contributes to outward success, right? The ability to focus and do what you say you’re gonna do. But like

John Marshall (52:19)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (52:19)

I doubled down in a way that I didn’t realize. I wanted this book to be the biggest, you know, put me out on every podcast, TV thing. I wanted to be the this big to do, and on the shelves and number one everywhere. So I was literally.

So transactional. And when I look back at some of the relationships that I took for granted or was transactional about for this outcome, on this side of it, I’m like, man, I feel like regretful about that.

I feel regretful just being or having gone through that really crazy outcome-driven experience and sitting here with more clarity and I would do it much more differently and in a way that is authentic to who I am versus I want that book to be number one everywhere and I want to be read, I want to be sold, you know, whatever number of copies I was anchored into.

It w it drove me and probably the people around me like a little insane. Yeah.

John Marshall (53:34)

Thank

you for thank you for sharing that insight into your experience. And just from like we we talked about when we were just like just just before just before we hit record about learning from our failures, right? Learning from the challenging things. Like

You know, how much would you have learned from, you know, the vast success of that of that book, right? Of your book? So,

Dr. Sohee Jun (54:06)

Yeah.

John Marshall (54:07)

you know, now with with the learnings that you have today, like how does that influence one, your ability to recognize when you’re shifting into that transactional state in the future for whatever reason?

And two, just your direction from here forward.

Dr. Sohee Jun (54:31)

Yeah, great questions. Well, I’ve written my third book, so I am doing it much more differently. I can get into that in another conversation, but yes, just the whole way that I’m moving forward with that and the scope is very different.

And then to your question about how do I recognize that, for me it it’s tied to speed. So when I feel myself like wound up and wanting to move fast, I for me feel it in my body. I feel very tight and kind of just like almost pulled forward in a way that I that I’m not anticipating. It just like it d I act on things without really thinking about it, just for the sake of moving forward.

And that’s when I notice. Like if I do w one or two actions that feel that way, I I I literally tell myself, okay, take a beat. Give give it a second, maybe give it a day, come back to it. Do I still feel the same? Is it aligned? Is this important? Is this priority? I go through all of the mental checks and questions, which can then move me into a different

like action or maybe not moving on that thing, just a different experience when I when I come back to it. so it’s like I gotta I know me now at fifty to be able to say, okay, I gotta slow down when I f feel myself propelled forward in a way that wasn’t generated by me.

John Marshall (56:02)

And that’s another, you know, core thread we could discuss as well is, you know, well, this is just who I am now, right? I’m forty five, fifty, fifty five, like I am who I am, no reason. But you know, that’s something I you know, I really respect in in you and respect in a lot of

people that are that this respect this and respect a lot of people that respect that this is an ongoing journey. Like we’re never not learning. And I just I hear that from you and just wanted wanted to celebrate that. Mm

Dr. Sohee Jun (56:39)

Thank you. Yeah, it’s

lifelong. I mean it’s this what I call it’s the game of being human. And as long as I’m taking breath, I will learn. So that’s the promise to myself.

John Marshall (56:51)

Beautiful, beautiful. And when it comes to noticing these these small things, and I don’t even want to say small things, but these like body level cues, right? It comes to like when this happens again. And I always say this to my clients, like it’s like controlling the mind with the mind is a like a misnomer. We don’t we don’t want to try to do that, right?

Especially when it comes to these like in the moment behaviors where our nervous system gets hijacked when we you know, we find ourselves in this mode where you wake up and it’s like, Well, the project’s already over. Right. But your body can send you those signals. So I just really wanted to highlight like how tuned in you are to like even to look back on this story and notice like the specific body triggers where

you can say, then pause, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (57:50)

Yeah, yeah.

John Marshall (57:50)

Because the mind

can’t say, I am myself doing this again, let me pause. Right? It’s it’s there’s there’s the body sensation. Let me pause and get present and more conscious about how I want to move forward. So, you know, I’m I’m curious. So you’ve you’ve been on this journey for some time, right? You’ve been you know

Toning the quality of your awareness for for many years. So what do you say to the listener that might just be starting this practice? Like maybe they just got interested in the body triggers that happen whenever they are caught in some rabbit hole or are

you know, are hooked by some emotional stimulus and they want to start doing something about it. How do you help them like kick off this journey of self-awareness and making different choices with that pause?

Dr. Sohee Jun (58:52)

Hmm, two things that are absolutely needing to be developed for the journey to be less bumpy. Insane curiosity about yourself and those. wow, what is that? If I’m taking a why is my breath shallow right now? I’m feeling jittery. Why? Maybe it’s just a function of caffeine, but then these are all learnings, right? And the other piece is heaps of compassion. Like

John Marshall (59:19)

Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (59:20)

We’re gonna mess it up. And I was gonna say the F word, but really, like we’ll we will fuck it up. Like

John Marshall (59:24)

Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (59:26)

especially for those really driven people that are wanting outcomes of things, we’re gonna be like, okay, I’m gonna meditate for five minutes. Why isn’t it happening? What I don’t what’s this crazy? I’m gonna stop. Give yourself compassion for the experience that just is. It is, it just is what’s present today. And that’s okay. And I think that in and of itself, that phrase, that’s okay.

Just gives people permission to be like, okay. It’s just what’s present today. I mean just get curious about that. Why is my head so full of fill in the blank? Why is it like mired in stories and past actions and future wantings? Here’s the other piece too. I have to share this. Look, I

My meditation mindfulness journey really kicked in during the pandemic. So when the world got quiet and was forced to be quiet is when I started to get really curious about the silence and finally able to hear myself, you know, in a good way, in a way n not good in the that I can hear the things of but it was just like, wow, expansiveness. because as a a high performer I was always doing, doing, doing. And then

Something that I hadn’t shared with you, my dad was a Buddhist monk.

John Marshall (1:00:45)

Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:00:47)

So, you know, all the Eastern stuff is certainly imprinted in me, except I hated meditation. I was like, Are you kidding me? Yes, dad, do the thing and study it. But like here I was, I bought all the things, John. The fancy cushion, the bells, the things, the beads. I’m a meditator now.

John Marshall (1:01:06)

Ha ha

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:01:08)

I did this probably for like a decade, playing with myself and this meditation thing and hating every minute of it. The only thing in that decade that I felt as close to mindfulness and body awareness was yoga.

John Marshall (1:01:21)

Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:01:22)

So yoga was the thing, my entry point to get curious. And when whenever I sat down on the cushion, I was like, this is such shit. I hate it.

And then the pandemic allowed me to get more curious and try it again. So it’s only been a six-year practice in which now I can’t live without it. But I want people to hear that. Like my dad was a Buddhist monk. You would think that I just took to it. I

John Marshall (1:01:46)

Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:01:47)

repelled it. I couldn’t stand it. Didn’t like the noise in my head.

Until I was ready for it. And so that’s the journey. Get curious. Give yourself compassion. Come back to it. If you’re not in for it right now, don’t force it.

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:02:06)

Meeting people, meet yourself where you are today. Celebrate.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:09)

Exactly. I wish

Are people gonna see this on video ’cause I’m like pointing to you. Yes. Meet

John Marshall (1:02:13)

Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:14)

people and yourself where you’re at.

John Marshall (1:02:17)

Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:18)

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:02:19)

Well, I I have to say that yoga was like I was always interested in Eastern philosophy, but it was o yoga was also my entry point as well.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:29)

Get out.

John Marshall (1:02:30)

Yeah, yeah, I’ve been

I’ve actually been teaching yoga for about eight years or so. I did so the when I talked about like the period of slowing down where you start to get to know yourself a lot better, it

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:43)

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:02:43)

was actually during five hundred hours of yoga teacher training was when I really slowed down and removed myself from the the doing, even though I was still like a high achiever and very focused in my corporate career at the time. But

I took the time to really think about who I am, what I want, what are some of the I mean, how do I show up? What are the triggers? What’s happening in my body? If it wasn’t for that first class that I got dragged into,

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:03:18)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (1:03:19)

And then when I get curious about something, when I fall in love, like I’m I’m in. So I taught I took one class in January of twenty seventeen and I taught my first class in January twenty eighteen. So I was I was in, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:03:31)

Yeah, you were. Wow.

John Marshall (1:03:33)

So so I I’ve

wholly resonate with with your with your journey there and and I think the the real the thing is like our access point was was very similar but you know your access point listener to peeling back the hood and becoming more aware of like what’s happening of why you do what you do, how you feel the way you do, behave the way you do, like your entry point may be different. It might be the feedback from your boss. It might be the feedback from your partner.

it might be just it might be something catastrophic. I don’t know.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:04:12)

Yeah. All of those paths, you know, yes, they exist. And I guess it’s funny, just a funny side note, I also entered into yoga teacher training and I hated it. So while I loved

John Marshall (1:04:25)

Ha ha.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:04:26)

going to yoga, I hated the class. I just I took two and I was like, I bounced. I’m like, I’m out of here.

John Marshall (1:04:36)

I know I and I could see some studios me having that, but the the the studio I did my training at was just so special. And it’s funny because the the owners of the of the studio were very versed in this work called light year leadership. So they were essentially all going through coaching and being like trained as coaches. So it was the funny thing was was I think the training was so resonant was because it was led by coaching philosophers.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:05:07)

That is very different and to get to your point about yes, that entry point is different and welcome that. You know, for the listener and say welcome your entry point wherever whatever that is and get curious. Yeah.

John Marshall (1:05:24)

’cause

I mean, really th the life that you want and everything that you want is is on the other side. The fundamental things that we want and need are on the other side of that I I believe.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:05:37)

I do too.

John Marshall (1:05:40)

Good.

Well, so we’ve we’ve covered so much today and and I I know I wanna I wanna take this I wanna take this up to the systems level, but we’re gonna have to do that on on another episode. You’re gonna right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:05:56)

I’ll gladly come back.

John Marshall (1:05:58)

You’re gonna have to come back because I wanna hear how this authentic power scales to the team, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:06:04)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (1:06:05)

And the organizations that want to start doing this work. But

Yeah, I wanna I think this is enough to leave the listeners with to get curious about themselves today.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:06:17)

Yeah, I agree. I think we still have a lot to unpack and today was dense in the best way. It was just a lot. Meta questions. We went we we went a a lot of different places. Yeah.

John Marshall (1:06:32)

Definitely. Well, d before before we sign off, I would love for you to just leave if there’s one thing, one practical action that anyone listening to this point in the episode should take to understand themselves better.

What advice would you give them?

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:06:55)

Yeah. I would give them this, which is notice your internal thoughts. What is that voice? And is it supporting you in the way you want to show up? Just start there.

John Marshall (1:07:09)

Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:07:11)

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:07:12)

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And listeners, we will have links to Dr. Sohee’s work in the show notes so you’ll be able to pick up all of her books that an another that’s that’s coming

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:07:31)

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:07:32)

and all of her website. So I mean, really, it’s just it’s just one interaction away. So if something about

her energy or something that she said today resonated with you, like just

go to her website and reach out. Right. It will be the links in the show notes lead to an actual human. So like don’t

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:07:53)

Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (1:07:54)

don’t hesitate to interact with her. And thank you so much for being listeners. And Dr. Sohee, thank you so much for joining today. It was really such a blessing to have this conversation. I feel like it was so mind expansive for me as well. So thank you for generating that here.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:08:16)

Yeah, thank you for inviting me in. This has been such a joy.

John Marshall (1:08:20)

Beautiful. And listeners, again, thank you so much for tuning in to the Present Professional. Wherever you’re listening to us, rate us and review us. Where you are listening to your podcast, it goes a long way to support the show. And again, we’ll see you next time.

John Marshall (00:32)
Welcome back to the Present Professional. Today, we have a special guest with us, Dr. Sohee Jun, a leadership coach, organizational psychologist, and best-selling author who spent more than two decades helping ambitious women navigate the internal and external pressures of leadership. Her books, The Aligned Mindset and Mommy Tracked, challenged women to examine the definitions of success they have inherited, move through fear.

Build careers and lives that are more authentic, sustainable, and fully their own. And today, we’re exploring what authentic power actually looks like, why success can still feel misaligned even when it looks impressive from the outside, and how leaders can pursue high performance without sacrificing themselves in the process. Sohee welcome to the present professional.

Dr. Sohee Jun (01:29)
Thank you, John. It is a pleasure to be here.

John Marshall (01:33)
Of course, of course. And just to to kick us off here, you work with highly accomplished women who, right, from the outside are appearing to succeed, have everything going for them, and you know but something is not quite representative from that on the inside. Right. So what are what are

these women experiencing internally that other people might not see.

Dr. Sohee Jun (02:06)
Yeah, I I love that question. It’s interesting because to your point, despite the outward achievements, the many mountains they have climbed, the milestones, the accolades, and no matter how many people look up to them, whether they know that or not, the inside stuff, you know, often brings up.

Gremlins about not being enough, not having done enough, not

being authentic, not being the shoulds they’ve been told they should be. So there’s a lot of noise that goes on on the inside,

of which I help I help them get clarity really about who they are in this season and how to make movement towards being aligned with who they are.

John Marshall (03:01)
Hmm. The shoulds. That’s that’s a big thing that comes up, I’d say for re regardless, regardless man, woman, it’s like there’s one thing I always say is, you know, like don’t don’t should all over yourself. Right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (03:18)
It’s true,

yes. And it’s hard to escape. Like what I say is like as a human being on this planet, we are shoulded all over from a lot of different sources. And the work for outer success is to get clear and remove the shoulds that don’t align with who you are and amplifying your unique strengths. And that’s been my journey as well.

John Marshall (03:44)
Hmm. Well, you brought it up and I’m glad that you did. I’d love to hear a little bit more about like your journey and what led you into specifically this work that you’re so passionately in pursuit of, supporting.

Dr. Sohee Jun (04:02)
Yeah, you know, I I I’ve been doing this work for 25 years and I never tire of it. You know, the leadership challenges seem to shift. So I I say it’s an honor to be doing what I’m doing. And it wasn’t by design. You know, I am an immigrant and the term I use is the bridge generation. So my children, I have three, are first generation and I am an immigrant, of which the bridge is like how I’m trying to bring

In all the good parts of being a South Korean, born and like born in South Korea and and being in the US and living to those expectations and norms as well, and passing on the best parts to my children. So, you know, I as an immigrant was

Deeply in the should of doing the classic, you know, do good in school. And my parents worked a lot of different jobs. And I did a story and a podcast story around my lived experience of helping my parents clean offices. You know, they at that time they were doing all they could to really make ends meet. So sometimes that meant going to the offices with them to clean. And that I think is really important to share because.

Because it was a moment for me that I really remember in which John, I was like, How do people get these offices? Like literal corner offices that I was cleaning. And I was I just remember being six or seven, not six, but like maybe around nine or ten, maybe a little older, the memory’s a little fuzzy, but just being in that office thinking, wow.

What did they do to get there? And I think that was an important imprint because it fueled in me, really also, you know, propelled by my parents’ desire for me to get

the education that they came here for us to get.

And doing all the schooling and and my mom was not a tiger mom. You know, I’m South Korean and we have this lore, right? Like, you must be a tiger mom. She wasn’t. She was too busy working. But what she did tell me was get the education no matter what. That was like priority number one. So as the good girl, I went to college and I said, listen, I guess I’ll be a medical doctor and then

John, here’s where the plot twist comes in. I was like, I I cannot do this. It’s one I I sucked.

At sciences. I mean, I could do it, trust me, but like it didn’t give me joy. Even before the term was a thing, I was like, this is not giving me any joy. And it wasn’t until I found the organizational psychology course in my senior year, I said, this is it. It’s like one of those pivotal moments where you you just know, and those moments are rare and far and few between. But it was that moment I was like, he is talking about psychology, something that I’m super innately interested in, and doing that in the workplace. Like, I want that.

So I followed that juice and that energy, which led me into a PhD program, which, you know, I felt like I checked off the marks. I was like, okay, I’m getting an advanced degree. My parents should

John Marshall (07:14)
Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (07:15)
be assuaged by that. And even though they didn’t know what the heck organizational psychology was, because this was we’re talking the nineties and

John Marshall (07:24)
Yep,

it wasn’t doctor, lawyer, engineer, so what was it?

Dr. Sohee Jun (07:28)
I know

exactly. What kind of doctor? You’re getting a PhD? Okay. So

John Marshall (07:32)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (07:33)
it propelled me into this career of which I started out kind of excited and also unsure because there wasn’t a clear path at that time. It was, you know, you can be a

a consultant and go around and do the consultant life or go internal and and pave away for yourself. And I chose the internal route of which was the right thing for me, working at a lot of different companies doing everything, organizational development, talent development, leadership development. And then I found even more juice and energy around the coaching piece, which is where I dove just all in. Yeah.

John Marshall (08:10)
Mhm.

That that resonates. Yeah, coaching, it’s it’s interesting ’cause coaching found me at a point in my corporate career as well. And just like leaned

Dr. Sohee Jun (08:23)
really?

John Marshall (08:25)
leaned all the way into coaching. Like different route, but you know, like you said, when you discover that thing it’s beyond just it’s beyond logic where it’s this, you know

heart centered drive to like connect deeply with this body of work. That’s how I also felt about coaching. So it’s beautiful

Dr. Sohee Jun (08:44)
Yeah.

John Marshall (08:45)
to meet you here.

Dr. Sohee Jun (08:46)
Yeah, agree. And I think I’m speaking for you now, and if it’s not true for you, of course we can unpack this, but I do think it’s my deeply curious nature. Even as

a child I remember just being super curious about people about my inner world. And when I

was able to use that one-on-one in the corporate world. And I just felt like all of the the planets line, like, okay, if I can help leaders using my superpowers and my deep curiosity and the power of the question, coupled that with like the energy that you bring to each session, which you know, John, it’s like, it’s magic can happen there.

John Marshall (09:28)
Certainly, certainly. And yes, you spoke for me. Deep curi my childhood, everything even today is fueled by deep curiosity. Like catch me you know, catch me at one AM on a Friday when I should definitely be catching up on sleep, you know,

Dr. Sohee Jun (09:45)
Ha ha

John Marshall (09:46)
watching some YouTube video about, I don’t know, astrophysics or something random. So

Dr. Sohee Jun (09:52)
Yeah.

John Marshall (09:53)
I mean, yeah, deep deep curiosity about the the human experience. But

And this so this curiosity, right, led you to like follow your heart to working with right the most unpredictable thing we can. Just the the human psyche, right? The place where you can have infinite curiosity. And you come to this place of of alignment. Like you speak you speak a lot about this this term and

Dr. Sohee Jun (10:26)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (10:28)
And it carries it carries a lot of weight in a lot of different contexts, right? Alignment scales from the individual to the team to the organization to society at large. But when you use the word alignment, like at the individual level, like what exactly is being brought into alignment in the work that you do?

Dr. Sohee Jun (10:53)
Mm, yes. So at the individual level, and by the way, I think this is I always say I coach from lived experience, and it’s been my work, my own personal work. And I think this quote comes to mind, which I saw this quote maybe 15 years ago now, and I just it it left an imprint. And it’s one that I think really encapsulates what it means to be in alignment at the individual level. And it’s

Gandhi himself, the wise, wise Gandhi, and he said, happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony. And when we really, really like lean into what that means, it helps us look at okay.

What am I what am I thinking right now? Again, the mindset piece that I’m so passionate about and wrote about in my second book. Your mindset.

And then how is it helping you show up in the way that you want to? The way that you speak about the what you say you want, except there’s all this internal tension about how you want to show up in the stories that we tell, the tell ourselves, the the load emotionally, and just all the stuff that we carry around that gets in the way of being in alignment. and then it and then it makes us act.

in not in congruence. So I I love saying this quote because it just is such a succinct way of saying like how are we mindful of what we think? Because it helps us shape up in the show up in the way that we want to. And then are you saying the things that are true for you? Right. So all of those things have to I think exist to be in alignment.

John Marshall (12:54)
Beautiful. Beautiful. I I had to sit with that quote for a moment and like really internalize it, integrate it. And that feels like alignment. So what you think, what you say, and what you do are incongruence.

Is there any particular order that a listener should be thinking that? I mean, I know you mentioned mindset to start, but can your actions and your words influence right your mindset, or vice versa? And I guess in a directional way,

Dr. Sohee Jun (13:37)
Mm.

John Marshall (13:38)
is there some priority that you place on what you think, say, or do?

Dr. Sohee Jun (13:43)
Yeah, absolutely.

And it is in that order. Look, I’ve in writing the second book, The Aligned Mindset, I did a lot of research. And that research was made up of going back to the women that I coach who are highly successful in their own ways to really get under the hood of, okay, well, how do you get there? How do you navigate challenges? And what I found was that underneath it all was their mindset. And so that question of where

Do

you start? If anyone were to really be interested and want to get more in alignment, it is to create awareness around their thoughts because it shapes how we show up and it’s one for one. So if entering into this podcast, I was thinking, man, I’m so nervous. I’m not gonna say things right, I’m gonna sound so small and like an idiot. Whatever that narrative is, it one for one will make me shrink.

In this conversation with you. It will diminish my energy, my participation, my interest in your questions, how present I am with you. Literally, I’ve seen it one for one in my clients and just in the work

of writing the book. So many stories of how mindset shapes how you show up. So

John Marshall (15:06)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (15:07)
How do we get aware of our mindset? It is to slow down and get curious about your inner narrative, right? Mindfulness is just a fancy term of saying, get aware. Literally, just be aware of your inner dialogue, your triggers, your strengths, your opportunities. That’s how it plays out in the corporate sense.

John Marshall (15:29)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (15:30)
at the individual level, it’s you know, how aware of you.

are you of your thoughts and your inner monologue? Is it helpful? Is it really supportive of how you want to show up?

John Marshall (15:44)
Mm.

I always find that there’s some trigger here that or a catalyst I would say that gets people to say, Maybe I should start looking at myself. Maybe I should start looking at the inner narrative. And it’s typically some I don’t know, piece some piece of feedback that jars them, something that’s a counter to their ego or identity that kind of jars them into

Am I who I think I am? Should I maybe I should start looking at that? Or some life altering experience or just some deep forced slowing down that kind of just causes you to look internally.

Dr. Sohee Jun (16:32)
Pandemic anyone? Yeah.

John Marshall (16:36)
exactly. Great catalyst for for the for self-awareness work. But what

What would you what would you say to someone that’s listening that’s not convinced yet that they need to spend this time diving deep into their narrative and that needs to I don’t know, take an assessment, work with a coach, whatever?

Like what do you say to the person that’s that’s not convinced yet that, you know, I I know myself, like I navigate the world just fine. so before something that’s life altering, what what could you say to them that maybe gets them, okay, I’ll take a look?

Dr. Sohee Jun (17:15)
Yeah. So I think an interesting place from that perspective would be to just play a fun game and see if what you think is actually true.

So what I mean by that is, you know, survey if it’s in the workplace your trusted colleagues and peers and say, hey, you know, how am I showing up? I’m really just curious and wanna get some thoughts on how you think I’m doing in terms of X, Y, and Z. In terms of leadership, or, you know, how how was even just as granular as how was that I in that meeting?

You know, was I articulate? Did I show up a certain way, the way that I was intending to? And by getting feedback, which is a core part of coaching,

it really gives you something to work with. Now, whether or not that shifts you into, you know, my gosh, I need some development here is really kind of a nice to have. It’s more just about are you aware of what others perceive of you? And

Or are you closed off and just kind of ensconced in your own world of like, I think I’m doing great and not aware of the impact that you have on others and how you show up and the energy that you bring?

John Marshall (18:33)
Mm. See, there’s there’s a person that I’m thinking of, an archetype that I’m thinking of where you but you’re delivering results. Like

Dr. Sohee Jun (18:48)
Mm.

John Marshall (18:49)
I’m you know, like the numbers are there, I’m I’m doing well.

You know, I don’t necessarily care what others think about me because I’m you know, because I’m performing and that’s what my company values or you know, that’s or maybe even they’re behaving that way because they think that’s what their company values or something. you know, why should why should they be interested if the if the fiscal results are there, but you know, maybe their colleagues could have something to share with them that would round them out or provide an opportunity for insight.

Why should

Dr. Sohee Jun (19:25)
Yeah.

John Marshall (19:25)
they care?

Dr. Sohee Jun (19:26)
Why should they care? Because literally those are like that’s every single person that comes into coaching. Here’s why. either they come to that realization of like, man, I’ve gotten some feedback. I need to work on that. That’s one avenue. The other choose your own adventure is your managers like John

You need coaching. Here’s why. You’re technically great. I know you’re making the numbers. You’re our best salesperson. Except I can’t put you in that meeting because they think you’re a fill in the blank. Or the people above me, they’re not a fan of yours. Or maybe all of this is true. Or your peers think you are a bulldog in a China shop. Is that the phrase? Or a a bull in a China shop, excuse me. So

John Marshall (20:09)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (20:12)
Either way, what I see for those that come into coaching, they have stalled in their career. And it is more oftentimes than not because they are not leaning into the personal development side. Their their skills of relating, their the way they do the work, not the outcome.

John Marshall (20:34)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (20:34)
The how it’s it’s done, really. Sure, you make the numbers, but are you doing it in a way that

Triggers everyone? Are you going against the culture of the company

and doing that? Are you, you know, making a mess everywhere you go in terms of relationships? Because here’s what I love to say, John, and I wonder how you feel about this. In this day of technology and how much we can do, it still comes down to relationships. A number one thing of derailing somebody’s career, if they’re not able to build relationships, manage relationships.

And know how they are showing up in those relationships.

John Marshall (21:15)
Hundred percent. I mean it’s the the essence of Humessence, my my company, right? It’s the I mean, that’s what that’s what we’re focused on is that specific, right, interpersonal dynamic. But what I’m what I’m hearing in your answer is like to the person that thinks like, well, I’m delivering results, you know, okay, let me just keep keep my head down and focus on delivering results, like why do I need to do this you know, slow down

Mindfulness venture, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (21:47)
Yeah.

John Marshall (21:48)
Well, it’s it’s because that it’ll catch up with you, right? So it’s like maybe you’ll you’re continuing to succeed until your high achievement gets to a place where you can no longer succeed in a vacuum, and

Dr. Sohee Jun (22:04)
Mm.

John Marshall (22:05)
it requires you to have a multiplicative effect. So when you have that requirement, if you haven’t done this work.

You’ll learn that you need to do the work whenever you

Dr. Sohee Jun (22:20)
absolutely.

John Marshall (22:21)
don’t whenever you get passed over or you don’t get the opportunity. Does that did I hear that right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (22:26)
absolutely. There’s a a study that came out recently from Burning Glass. And it’s this concept of the mid-career stall. And that they’re seeing enormous numbers of people in their mid-career not get promoted in the they time bounded it. Like if it hasn’t happened or you haven’t advanced within the five-year window.

it really has to come down to okay, how there’s structural things, sure, right? There’s only so many promotions to go around, so we have to recognize that. And also there are things that the people that aren’t getting promoted are not doing. So, you know, factor those things in and you gotta wonder, okay, if I wanna advance is what I’m doing in terms of meeting the numbers enough.

John Marshall (23:25)
Hmm. So it it just it comes down to their emotional intelligence, just to kind of group it group it together, I guess, is the like the thing that’s I guess across that data, I would assume the gap when it comes to the folks that are stuck beyond that five year mark is the like lack of emotional intelligence.

Dr. Sohee Jun (23:51)
Yeah, you know, we work in systems. We don’t work just by ourselves day in and day out.

If you’re in a company, you’re full and surrounded with people, whether you work remotely or not. That’s not the point. It’s the work gets done through people. And so that is what is going to catapult your career, how you’re perceived, how people like working with you. Less about like, but like do you leave them feeling like it’s a good interaction?

And yeah, so I would say it’s it definitely catches up with them.

John Marshall (24:28)
Okay, so back to back to alignment, right? Say you’re you’re getting you you’re aware, you’re starting to pay attention to your narratives, you you are s noticing where when you’re out of congruence, right?

So you’re starting, you’re working with you, or maybe some resource that you recommend to start noticing these areas of of incongruence. So I’m s I’m hearing that there’s like a period of listening, right? There’s a period of noticing the narrative. Where is it coming up? Like this this listening period. So then once you get past the the listening period, what are some of the ways that you help people like more

practical action or strategies to okay, you’ve listened or noticed the areas of incongruence, but what are the strategies to get back in congruence, to move towards that? So what’s after the listening phase in your path towards

Dr. Sohee Jun (25:32)
yeah.

John Marshall (25:32)
alignment?

Dr. Sohee Jun (25:33)
Yeah. When a client works with me, we get really quickly into workshopping. They’re pressing current challenges. So one of the most valuable pieces is having that person that can that’s neutral.

And also aware enough of the industry and/or role or both to be able to shine a light on what possibilities exist that you hadn’t explored before by way of action. So sometimes it looks like giving actual, like here are some things I suggest, you make it your own, or you decide if you want to act on that, some actual tips, my suggestions, or role-playing certain scenarios so that the leader feels more confident in how to move.

move

forward in a situation that might feel very complex and fraught with tension. And the other thing too, John, I’m sure you’re seeing this in the companies that you’re working with and with leaders, there is so much uncertainty. Like people are reactive times 10.

reacting and there’s just a swirl of capital U uncertainty. I mean VUCA amplified. And

John Marshall (26:46)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (26:47)
the value, the clarity

in the session is really okay, bring in that challenge.

Let’s create some awareness and then let’s actually equip you with some different or even options if they feel that they didn’t have options before. But it’s like creating that toolkit that feels really doable in an actual scenario. So I don’t like say bring in let’s make stuff up. I’m not a fan of making things up. It’s like what’s what are you actually pressed with right now?

John Marshall (27:21)
Hm. So it’s it’s less about, okay, we listened, here’s the narrative, let’s rewrite it philosophically or abstractly. It’s more about, okay, we’ve noticed the narrative that you might be applying to X your existence, right? But let’s let’s

play alignment into a specific scenario. Like let’s ground

Dr. Sohee Jun (27:45)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (27:46)
this in your reality. Like how are you approaching this from a state of congruence? Like what are your options there to respond in a way that is aligned with who you are, what you think?

Right, in a way that you can say and do what’s in alignment there. So you actually play it out in the specific scenario itself. And I find that coaching is a lot about going from a place of this is just the way I handle things or this is the only option to expanding that to what are the options. So you I know I heard you mention like

giving options, right,

Dr. Sohee Jun (28:24)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (28:25)
of ways that you can move forward here. And I find that that’s a lot. Most cases of coaching is expanding like the client’s mind from like tunnel vision to like multiple perspectives or different options, moving from black and white thinking to what’s in the gray and exploring that.

Dr. Sohee Jun (28:46)
Yeah. Yeah, be yes, John, because what’s required of leadership these days, no matter at what level, whether it’s frontline leadership or, you know, at the top of the totem pole of which most of my clients sit there, it’s it’s this ability to be in the gray and to quickly take in a lot of different perspectives and then acting

Taking a microaction incongruence with the way that you want to show up. So, yes, I would say most people live in this or that option A or option B, or maybe no option, they feel stuck, like I said previously. It’s about opening up the aperture and saying, okay, well, what’s possible to you if what hadn’t we explored before? And

the parallel tracks of that in your real scenario, here’s what it could look like, what are what are you thinking, what do you desire, what’s the outcome you’d like, exploring all of those together, which makes it super dynamic and one that isn’t effective if you do it alone.

John Marshall (29:51)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

this ex generative conversation where right things just emerge like you have someone because it’s not even just you have someone observing

and providing feedback. It’s it’s like you’re you’re co-regulating, right? Like you are behaving differently. Things are more emerging from your sub and conscious mind that might not emerge outside of a conversation like coaching. So

Dr. Sohee Jun (30:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (30:24)
I I really

I really

don’t think that there is a there’s a replacement for like the generative space that coaching provides. So I agree I’m a huge, huge proponent. But

Dr. Sohee Jun (30:37)
It’s

that and if what I’ll add there is it’s the ability to actually call it out in the moment. So I’ll take client X. So there’s an actual client I’m working with where the person

over talks and talks over people as the feedback sh was shared and is very much in the mindset of touting their achievements and no matter what space they’re in. And it actually happened with me in session. So as a coach, if you’re present and aware and you are deeply like in the session, it is upon the coach to call out what’s happening.

So

John Marshall (31:23)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (31:23)
there’s the juice right there that you don’t get in doing that yourself or asking a friend, hypothetically. It’s the real me of saying, I just wanted to share something with you that I’m I’m observing, John. it was hard to get a word in. You were talking over me. And having that dialogue, which is where the learning happens.

John Marshall (31:49)
I agree. I agree. It takes sometimes you have to, you know, you have to challenge your client, right? You have

Dr. Sohee Jun (31:55)
yes.

John Marshall (31:55)
to tell him right, you know, tell him once you develop the relationship, it becomes a little easier. I’ve had a client just just last week where he brought he brought something he brought something to me that was more of like the way it was the way he responded to his boss’s email or something like that.

And like the way that he handled disseminating that information to his team and he kind of laid out what happened versus kind of what was rubbing him the wrong way. And it it just got to the point in the session where, you know, I just asked him, like

I think you know what answer or what approach is aligned with who you are and the leader you want to be, and you’re asking me for my opinion to confirm what you already believe. Like what’s true about that, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (32:48)
Yeah, confirmation bias.

John Marshall (32:52)
You know, and he was essentially like, Okay, maybe. And I’m like, Well, I’m not gonna give you that because you already know what’s in alignment with you. So you’re welcome.

Dr. Sohee Jun (33:03)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (33:05)
Right. Right. Like he already he already knew, but I I had to the easy thing would have been to say, like, yes, it seems like that, like this way is more aligned with who you are and this works for you. Right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (33:17)
That

sounds like a a chat GPT response, by the way.

John Marshall (33:20)
Exactly. Yes.

certainly.

Dr. Sohee Jun (33:24)
Which I mean, that’s a whole nother conversation. And that is the work of a one a coach that’s very aware has done I think their own work to create

groundedness and I bring my lived experience and I know you you do too, having led teams myself, I I I get the challenges and especially those of women in in today’s workforce. So I bring all of that into the mix, which is why it’s a beautiful, I think, scientific dance, if you will, because also it’s grounded in theories.

John Marshall (34:47)
Certainly. I mean we could spend a whole episode on unpacking all of that and

Dr. Sohee Jun (34:51)
I know

John Marshall (34:51)
the theories under that right. But I wanna marry what we’ve been talking about about alignment with another concept we see in your work is authentic power. And yeah, first I’d love for you to explain to the listeners like to what authentic power really means and how it’s

supported or or even s or even like completely tied to alignment.

Dr. Sohee Jun (35:25)
Yeah, yeah. I will use this example, which is that most of the female clients I work with, you know, some version of this exists, which is I need to work on my executive presence. And you know, it’s a and you you had a reaction right there. And the

John Marshall (35:47)
yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (35:48)
the core question for me is okay, so what stripping or

the word is really unpacking what they’ve learned, seen, been told about what executive presence looks like.

Let’s first create some awareness there and then peel the layers and pull the threads on who are you? So if I’m, let’s use me as an example, Sohee, who are you as a leader? What does that version look like?

When we take off the layer of performing, the layer of people pleasing, the layer of what we think we should do, going back to that term. And

John Marshall (36:35)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (36:36)
who is Sohee as a leader at her most authentic? And it might take

a long time for that to crystallize, and that’s the work in session.

John Marshall (36:48)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (36:48)
And sometimes

it’s not. It’s, you know, I I want to share my perspective freely. I I have a lot I want to say. I just feel like I can’t say it. Or you know, I wanna stop being so nervous and so judgy of myself. I feel like everyone’s judging me when I’m at a committee meeting or, you know, presenting to the board or whatever that looks like. It’s helping them anchor into their unique strengths.

Really grounding them in that, and that it’s okay to be who they are. Despite the, you know, they might see so-and-so getting accolades or you know, all of the promotions or praise for whoever that person is is and what they’re doing. Forget that. Let’s let’s be here in who you are. Remove some of the comparisonitis and

John Marshall (37:37)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (37:38)
By, I’m saying just a lot, I feel like a lot of terms that are so out there, but really it is about the work of bringing out and amplifying who they are so that they could be in alignment. Because here’s the story: I just before this session, John, I was in a coaching session with a client, and part of the conversation was: okay, so who are you? What does that look like? And how can we

How can we help you feel confident that that’s enough? Right? Instead of being performative or who you’ve been told you should be.

John Marshall (38:21)
So I’m hearing there’s a little bit of like the demystifying this narrative that you build around the executive present archetype in your mind and saying instead of being that to achieve executive presence, it’s like what does true presence mean?

for you client look like. So who you are and bringing that authentic presence to the table will actually provide

you more personal power in the conversation than it would becoming that archetype. Am

Dr. Sohee Jun (39:04)
Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

John Marshall (39:06)
I hearing that correctly?

Dr. Sohee Jun (39:07)
Yes, you are. So are there certain technical skills that we can all up our game around? Certainly. Being more articulate, perhaps learning how to speak better. Sure. Table stakes. And then it’s really about this phrase and I love quotes. I remember quotes a lot just around

Leadership. And this one is by Maya Angelo. And she said, people don’t remember what you say or do. It’s how you make them feel. And I feel that that’s so aligned with leadership because the core tenets that I coach leaders around is: do you make your team or the people you’re interacting with or the person, do you make them feel seen, heard, and valued?

So it’s less about getting into the weeds of the work or arguing who did what. It’s more about lifting up.

And now orienting to okay, who am I? How do I help people feel seen, heard, and valued? Because that’s what people remember. I mean, if you if I think about the best members in my career, and probably for you too, it I don’t necessarily remember, my gosh, so and so was my best boss because they spoke the best. It’s wow, they they believed in me. They really made me s feel valued.

John Marshall (40:34)
Mm-hmm.

The way they made me feel. Now this I always come back when it anytime executive presence gets brought up, I always tie it back to the

the nervous system, right? And and co-regulation. So when you say make make me feel I think you’d be really interested in this work if you’re not already deep into it. But polyvagal theory.

Dr. Sohee Jun (41:03)
I’ve heard of it.

John Marshall (41:03)
And

the in the concept of co-regulation. So I I I genuinely believe that executive presence is how well you help others regulate their nervous system in times of in times of challenge or or crisis, which is just another way of saying how you make them feel, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (41:21)
Yeah.

John Marshall (41:22)
It’s like when you feel seen, valued, like you you’re you’re you’re present, you’re you’re comfortable, you’re at ease with the challenge that we’re facing, right?

It’s like that’s where I usually see and when I bring this up to clients, like the people that you probably think have the most executive presence are the people that helped you feel at ease in the midst of a crisis or chaos. Right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (41:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I

deeply resonate with that. Absolutely. And now I’m gonna dive deeper into that that topic.

John Marshall (41:57)
think I think you’ll really, really enjoy the work, but but to but to tie it into your your work and the and the frameworks of like between alignment and authentic presence is like in order to regulate your nervous system, like in order to do it, whether you say it’s how you make you feel or regulate others’ nervous system, it doesn’t matter, like you have to be in a place where

you can regulate your own nervous system where you’re comfortable in your

own skin. And I I think like it’s just tying all of this together for me where like authentic presence captures and authentic power captures all of everything we just said.

Dr. Sohee Jun (42:39)
a thousand percent. Yes. I love that. and where I’m going in my mind is, you know, that’s what the work has been and why it’s been so deep with the women, because they’re so and I’m I’m of course generalizing and it is true too, both can exist that

it’s more of a service role. Like I wanna do things for you, for my team, I want to do it for my boss, for my clients, for my family. And then literally, even if they’re on the list, probably not, it’s it’s that work. Like I one of the questions that I start off my coaching sessions with is okay, what word or words describe how you feel?

Because again, it’s getting back to that premise of mindfulness and awareness and helping them get below the neck, right? Embodied leadership. What are we feeling

John Marshall (43:35)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (43:37)
to help us co-regulate ourselves? Starts from a place of awareness. Like, okay, now I’m getting circular, but you get the point. It’s can you put words to what you’re feeling? And it it sometimes catches people off guard. They’re like, wow, hmm.

Gotta think about that. Again, the whole thinking thing. No, no, no. Dip into your body. How are you feeling?

John Marshall (43:55)
Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

I mean ’cause we value logic, right? We value head intelligence, like not in more just capitalist West in general, versus right, heart intelligence. And

And the thing is, is like in order to get to a place where you can be aligned and you know and authentically present and empower, you have to be able to understand and articulate how you’re feeling. Because it’s it’s not that, you know, when you’re regulated and you have all this you have this profound authentic executive presence, right? It’s not that you don’t have feelings. Right. It’s not that nothing affects you and you’re no

longer triggered. It’s just you are acutely aware of

the body sensations that like bring about this non-presence.

Dr. Sohee Jun (44:53)
Yeah.

John Marshall (44:53)
So you’re

able to to manage them. So I think what you’re saying is when you’re working with your clients through this and that profound way to enter a question of specifically how to describe how they feel, like even that act right there in session with you is getting them more in tune with the noticing that requires for them to be able to self-manage and be present, regardless

Dr. Sohee Jun (45:17)
Mm.

John Marshall (45:18)
of like the stakes, the crisis, the things that are going on, like starts with that.

One question.

Dr. Sohee Jun (45:24)
It does. And it’s a simple and I think a really profound one. And thank you for illuminating that, John. It’s like I think it’s as you’re probably seeing too, there’s so much un like chaos, uncertainty, as I said before, that really untethers people. In most of the client the clients that come from the entertainment industry currently.

There’s, you know, mergers, there’s layoffs, there’s teams being merged, there’s people thinking about retirement quicker than they thought, or all sorts of organizational upheaval. And so this work feels really pressing right now from a coach’s standpoint, just to help people tap into grounding themselves so that they’re they don’t then

leak it onto and react and really ruin relationships, which I think at the end of the day is the majority of our regrets.

John Marshall (46:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, so let’s let’s talk about some of the things that that get in the way of authentic presence and and alignment. Because this this conversation brings up something I just experienced with a client maybe two weeks ago. He he was

We’re talk talking about like he wants to get this again, executive presence. I want to be able to like bring my ideas to the table, like speak confidently, all of this stuff. Be and he said, right, because this is the feedback that I’ve been getting and the gap between like me getting this promotion, right? And it came down to that he was feeling like is not enough, right? Feeling like he was passed over.

feeling like so in order to feel good about myself, I need this promotion. So he’s like, let me attack the presence that I need in order to get this promotion. And I kind of presented to him this catch 22 of that it’s interesting that like the the need

For the promot for the promotion to be directly tied with your need to feel good about yourself is the exact reason why you can’t bring confidently bring your voice to the table. Right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (47:57)
Mm,

yes.

John Marshall (47:59)
So it’s like your so your path to your your motivator for executive presence is the thing that’s going to not give you executive presence that will lead to your promotion. So like this I need to feel good about this promotion need to feel good about myself. First, it’s sourcing feeling good about yourself from somewhere else so that you can bring your confidently bring your idea.

to the table without fear of the repercussions and outcome, which is your executive presence, that will lead to your promotion. So until you can uncouple the

Until you can uncouple the feeling of being enough or feeling good about myself being tied to the promotion, it’s going to be difficult to take social risk, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (48:52)
Yeah.

John Marshall (48:53)
To be authentically present and present your ideas

and those things. So so it’s been so ever since that conversation and even before, I’ve been like really

curious about all of the things that can get in the way from authentic power, authentic presence. And there was that one belief, but I’m curious, like in all of your work with all of the women that you’ve worked with and very high powered situations, positions, what are the things that get in the way of their authentic power?

Dr. Sohee Jun (49:27)
When they are too tied to an outcome.

That’s it. Honestly, I’ll just be very direct with it. When we are so spun up on that outcome, whether it’s a I want that promotion or I want people to rate me highly, whatever that outcome is, or I want to win that project, or I want to win that thing. Strip away your authenticity right there. That’s the formula. and it’s not to say you can’t desire an outcome.

But really like change the lens with which that takes over. Right? You can have a goal in mind, certainly, of course. Have the goal and the desire. And hold it loosely. Like there’s no other way to say it than just like loosen the core.

Around it a little bit. Otherwise it becomes a transaction. And w in the scenario that you are describing with your client, it’s to me the word that came up as you were speaking about it was transactional. Like I’m gonna do that so I get that.

John Marshall (50:37)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (50:38)
Literally the definition of being inauthentic. In my

John Marshall (50:42)
Ha ha.

Dr. Sohee Jun (50:44)
terms.

John Marshall (50:46)
Right. No, I

I I agree. and it’s but it’s just in those in those thought experiments, like right, he kind of paused and really hit him like, Right. So then the like the the the the cushy work of like feeling good about myself from somewhere else is now tied to this like really material outcome, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (51:13)
Yeah.

John Marshall (51:13)
So it’s like then people get get interested of like maybe I do need to rewrite my my narrative. You know. So when it comes to the outcome, it’s funny, it like it always for some reason I feel like all of my conversations always come back to these Eastern philosophical principles of right.

releasing attachment to the outcome, right? The path to enlightenment. But really it’s the the path to to being yourself, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (51:53)
Yeah.

I I’ll share a personal story there. you know, there was a point in my life, probably two years ago, when I was so, so tied to the outcome of of l the second book, The Aligned Mindset. And I didn’t know it at the time, but I was literally like

When I’m focused, I mean, of course, that’s partly what contributes to outward success, right? The ability to focus and do what you say you’re gonna do. But like

John Marshall (52:19)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (52:19)
I doubled down in a way that I didn’t realize. I wanted this book to be the biggest, you know, put me out on every podcast, TV thing. I wanted to be the this big to do, and on the shelves and number one everywhere. So I was literally.

So transactional. And when I look back at some of the relationships that I took for granted or was transactional about for this outcome, on this side of it, I’m like, man, I feel like regretful about that.

I feel regretful just being or having gone through that really crazy outcome-driven experience and sitting here with more clarity and I would do it much more differently and in a way that is authentic to who I am versus I want that book to be number one everywhere and I want to be read, I want to be sold, you know, whatever number of copies I was anchored into.

It w it drove me and probably the people around me like a little insane. Yeah.

John Marshall (53:34)
Thank

you for thank you for sharing that insight into your experience. And just from like we we talked about when we were just like just just before just before we hit record about learning from our failures, right? Learning from the challenging things. Like

You know, how much would you have learned from, you know, the vast success of that of that book, right? Of your book? So,

Dr. Sohee Jun (54:06)
Yeah.

John Marshall (54:07)
you know, now with with the learnings that you have today, like how does that influence one, your ability to recognize when you’re shifting into that transactional state in the future for whatever reason?

And two, just your direction from here forward.

Dr. Sohee Jun (54:31)
Yeah, great questions. Well, I’ve written my third book, so I am doing it much more differently. I can get into that in another conversation, but yes, just the whole way that I’m moving forward with that and the scope is very different.

And then to your question about how do I recognize that, for me it it’s tied to speed. So when I feel myself like wound up and wanting to move fast, I for me feel it in my body. I feel very tight and kind of just like almost pulled forward in a way that I that I’m not anticipating. It just like it d I act on things without really thinking about it, just for the sake of moving forward.

And that’s when I notice. Like if I do w one or two actions that feel that way, I I I literally tell myself, okay, take a beat. Give give it a second, maybe give it a day, come back to it. Do I still feel the same? Is it aligned? Is this important? Is this priority? I go through all of the mental checks and questions, which can then move me into a different

like action or maybe not moving on that thing, just a different experience when I when I come back to it. so it’s like I gotta I know me now at fifty to be able to say, okay, I gotta slow down when I f feel myself propelled forward in a way that wasn’t generated by me.

John Marshall (56:02)
And that’s another, you know, core thread we could discuss as well is, you know, well, this is just who I am now, right? I’m forty five, fifty, fifty five, like I am who I am, no reason. But you know, that’s something I you know, I really respect in in you and respect in a lot of

people that are that this respect this and respect a lot of people that respect that this is an ongoing journey. Like we’re never not learning. And I just I hear that from you and just wanted wanted to celebrate that. Mm

Dr. Sohee Jun (56:39)
Thank you. Yeah, it’s

lifelong. I mean it’s this what I call it’s the game of being human. And as long as I’m taking breath, I will learn. So that’s the promise to myself.

John Marshall (56:51)
Beautiful, beautiful. And when it comes to noticing these these small things, and I don’t even want to say small things, but these like body level cues, right? It comes to like when this happens again. And I always say this to my clients, like it’s like controlling the mind with the mind is a like a misnomer. We don’t we don’t want to try to do that, right?

Especially when it comes to these like in the moment behaviors where our nervous system gets hijacked when we you know, we find ourselves in this mode where you wake up and it’s like, Well, the project’s already over. Right. But your body can send you those signals. So I just really wanted to highlight like how tuned in you are to like even to look back on this story and notice like the specific body triggers where

you can say, then pause, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (57:50)
Yeah, yeah.

John Marshall (57:50)
Because the mind

can’t say, I am myself doing this again, let me pause. Right? It’s it’s there’s there’s the body sensation. Let me pause and get present and more conscious about how I want to move forward. So, you know, I’m I’m curious. So you’ve you’ve been on this journey for some time, right? You’ve been you know

Toning the quality of your awareness for for many years. So what do you say to the listener that might just be starting this practice? Like maybe they just got interested in the body triggers that happen whenever they are caught in some rabbit hole or are

you know, are hooked by some emotional stimulus and they want to start doing something about it. How do you help them like kick off this journey of self-awareness and making different choices with that pause?

Dr. Sohee Jun (58:52)
Hmm, two things that are absolutely needing to be developed for the journey to be less bumpy. Insane curiosity about yourself and those. wow, what is that? If I’m taking a why is my breath shallow right now? I’m feeling jittery. Why? Maybe it’s just a function of caffeine, but then these are all learnings, right? And the other piece is heaps of compassion. Like

John Marshall (59:19)
Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (59:20)
We’re gonna mess it up. And I was gonna say the F word, but really, like we’ll we will fuck it up. Like

John Marshall (59:24)
Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (59:26)
especially for those really driven people that are wanting outcomes of things, we’re gonna be like, okay, I’m gonna meditate for five minutes. Why isn’t it happening? What I don’t what’s this crazy? I’m gonna stop. Give yourself compassion for the experience that just is. It is, it just is what’s present today. And that’s okay. And I think that in and of itself, that phrase, that’s okay.

Just gives people permission to be like, okay. It’s just what’s present today. I mean just get curious about that. Why is my head so full of fill in the blank? Why is it like mired in stories and past actions and future wantings? Here’s the other piece too. I have to share this. Look, I

My meditation mindfulness journey really kicked in during the pandemic. So when the world got quiet and was forced to be quiet is when I started to get really curious about the silence and finally able to hear myself, you know, in a good way, in a way n not good in the that I can hear the things of but it was just like, wow, expansiveness. because as a a high performer I was always doing, doing, doing. And then

Something that I hadn’t shared with you, my dad was a Buddhist monk.

John Marshall (1:00:45)
Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:00:47)
So, you know, all the Eastern stuff is certainly imprinted in me, except I hated meditation. I was like, Are you kidding me? Yes, dad, do the thing and study it. But like here I was, I bought all the things, John. The fancy cushion, the bells, the things, the beads. I’m a meditator now.

John Marshall (1:01:06)
Ha ha

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:01:08)
I did this probably for like a decade, playing with myself and this meditation thing and hating every minute of it. The only thing in that decade that I felt as close to mindfulness and body awareness was yoga.

John Marshall (1:01:21)
Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:01:22)
So yoga was the thing, my entry point to get curious. And when whenever I sat down on the cushion, I was like, this is such shit. I hate it.

And then the pandemic allowed me to get more curious and try it again. So it’s only been a six-year practice in which now I can’t live without it. But I want people to hear that. Like my dad was a Buddhist monk. You would think that I just took to it. I

John Marshall (1:01:46)
Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:01:47)
repelled it. I couldn’t stand it. Didn’t like the noise in my head.

Until I was ready for it. And so that’s the journey. Get curious. Give yourself compassion. Come back to it. If you’re not in for it right now, don’t force it.

Yeah.

John Marshall (1:02:06)
Meeting people, meet yourself where you are today. Celebrate.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:09)
Exactly. I wish

Are people gonna see this on video ’cause I’m like pointing to you. Yes. Meet

John Marshall (1:02:13)
Yeah.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:14)
people and yourself where you’re at.

John Marshall (1:02:17)
Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:18)
Yeah.

John Marshall (1:02:19)
Well, I I have to say that yoga was like I was always interested in Eastern philosophy, but it was o yoga was also my entry point as well.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:29)
Get out.

John Marshall (1:02:30)
Yeah, yeah, I’ve been

I’ve actually been teaching yoga for about eight years or so. I did so the when I talked about like the period of slowing down where you start to get to know yourself a lot better, it

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:02:43)
Yeah.

John Marshall (1:02:43)
was actually during five hundred hours of yoga teacher training was when I really slowed down and removed myself from the the doing, even though I was still like a high achiever and very focused in my corporate career at the time. But

I took the time to really think about who I am, what I want, what are some of the I mean, how do I show up? What are the triggers? What’s happening in my body? If it wasn’t for that first class that I got dragged into,

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:03:18)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (1:03:19)
And then when I get curious about something, when I fall in love, like I’m I’m in. So I taught I took one class in January of twenty seventeen and I taught my first class in January twenty eighteen. So I was I was in, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:03:31)
Yeah, you were. Wow.

John Marshall (1:03:33)
So so I I’ve

wholly resonate with with your with your journey there and and I think the the real the thing is like our access point was was very similar but you know your access point listener to peeling back the hood and becoming more aware of like what’s happening of why you do what you do, how you feel the way you do, behave the way you do, like your entry point may be different. It might be the feedback from your boss. It might be the feedback from your partner.

it might be just it might be something catastrophic. I don’t know.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:04:12)
Yeah. All of those paths, you know, yes, they exist. And I guess it’s funny, just a funny side note, I also entered into yoga teacher training and I hated it. So while I loved

John Marshall (1:04:25)
Ha ha.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:04:26)
going to yoga, I hated the class. I just I took two and I was like, I bounced. I’m like, I’m out of here.

John Marshall (1:04:36)
I know I and I could see some studios me having that, but the the the studio I did my training at was just so special. And it’s funny because the the owners of the of the studio were very versed in this work called light year leadership. So they were essentially all going through coaching and being like trained as coaches. So it was the funny thing was was I think the training was so resonant was because it was led by coaching philosophers.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:05:07)
That is very different and to get to your point about yes, that entry point is different and welcome that. You know, for the listener and say welcome your entry point wherever whatever that is and get curious. Yeah.

John Marshall (1:05:24)
’cause

I mean, really th the life that you want and everything that you want is is on the other side. The fundamental things that we want and need are on the other side of that I I believe.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:05:37)
I do too.

John Marshall (1:05:40)
Good.

Well, so we’ve we’ve covered so much today and and I I know I wanna I wanna take this I wanna take this up to the systems level, but we’re gonna have to do that on on another episode. You’re gonna right.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:05:56)
I’ll gladly come back.

John Marshall (1:05:58)
You’re gonna have to come back because I wanna hear how this authentic power scales to the team, right?

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:06:04)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (1:06:05)
And the organizations that want to start doing this work. But

Yeah, I wanna I think this is enough to leave the listeners with to get curious about themselves today.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:06:17)
Yeah, I agree. I think we still have a lot to unpack and today was dense in the best way. It was just a lot. Meta questions. We went we we went a a lot of different places. Yeah.

John Marshall (1:06:32)
Definitely. Well, d before before we sign off, I would love for you to just leave if there’s one thing, one practical action that anyone listening to this point in the episode should take to understand themselves better.

What advice would you give them?

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:06:55)
Yeah. I would give them this, which is notice your internal thoughts. What is that voice? And is it supporting you in the way you want to show up? Just start there.

John Marshall (1:07:09)
Mm.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:07:11)
Yeah.

John Marshall (1:07:12)
Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. And listeners, we will have links to Dr. Sohee’s work in the show notes so you’ll be able to pick up all of her books that an another that’s that’s coming

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:07:31)
Yeah.

John Marshall (1:07:32)
and all of her website. So I mean, really, it’s just it’s just one interaction away. So if something about

her energy or something that she said today resonated with you, like just

go to her website and reach out. Right. It will be the links in the show notes lead to an actual human. So like don’t

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:07:53)
Mm-hmm.

John Marshall (1:07:54)
don’t hesitate to interact with her. And thank you so much for being listeners. And Dr. Sohee, thank you so much for joining today. It was really such a blessing to have this conversation. I feel like it was so mind expansive for me as well. So thank you for generating that here.

Dr. Sohee Jun (1:08:16)
Yeah, thank you for inviting me in. This has been such a joy.

John Marshall (1:08:20)
Beautiful. And listeners, again, thank you so much for tuning in to the Present Professional. Wherever you’re listening to us, rate us and review us. Where you are listening to your podcast, it goes a long way to support the show. And again, we’ll see you next time.