Lead From Any Level - Leading Up

John: You’re listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

John: To change your experience of life and work with every episode. So tune in, grab your notebook, and let’s go.

Tony: Let’s go.

John: Welcome to another episode of The Present Professional. Today, we’re into our second episode of our Lead from Any Level series from The 360 Leader by John Maxwell. Today, we’re going to be talking about leading up. So whether you’re starting at your organization, whether you’re at a mid-level, or that you’re at the top and you have to lead up to the board, there’s something there for you to be able to manage up. be able to contribute upline, right? And that’s going to propel your leadership trajectory forward and really the communication framework of your whole organization, right? You’ll find that your team will expand. You’ll find that you’ll add value from any level because you were hired for a reason. Your insight matters now, even as you’re learning. As I presence that, Tony, what comes up for you as the first thing that our listeners should take in in regards to leading up? Emotional intelligence, baby.

Tony: No, I’m kidding. Really, if you go back to our first four episodes, you’ll hear us talk about emotional intelligence. You know, I think that that is a big part of leading up. You know, in the book, 360 Leader by John Maxwell, he talks about the first thing that you want to do when you’re leading up is lead yourself exceptionally well. So I love how you mentioned whether you’re at the top of an organization and you need to work with a board or whether you’re a new hire entry level. The first thing that you want to do is get your bearings. You want to lead yourself well. You wanna manage your emotions, you wanna manage your time, your priorities, your energy, your words, your personal life, and my favorite is your thinking. You wanna manage thinking. It’s easy to get into an organization and think, I’m an outsider. It’s like, well, you’re not an outsider, you’re just a new hire, and you’re adapting to the culture. And if you come in and you preface yourself too much as not fitting in, then that’s the, energy that you’re bringing. So you want to manage all those things so that you can properly lead up. Because if you show up to work and you are your full self, you are a present professional when you show up, it’s going to be noticed, it’s going to be respected, it’s going to be seen, and that alone will get you looked at. That alone will get you time with your leaders if you need it. Just because of your your energy, you’re showing up as your full self. And what happens after that, you know, we’ll touch on some other lead up principles, but the first one is making sure that you show up exceptionally well, you lead yourself exceptionally well. And when we say lead yourself exceptionally well, I’m not just using exceptional It’s just a filler word. No, really lead yourself exceptionally well. Do what it takes to show up as the very, very, very best version of yourself every day. It doesn’t mean that you are perfect. No, it means that I may have 98 out of 100 to give today, I may have 92, I may have 85, I may have 100, but I’m showing up as close as I can to that 100 because I know that my energy is transferable at this company and I want to make sure that I make an impact. And that’s the mindset that you want to have going to work. So the first leader principle is lead yourself exceptionally well. And I think you and I probably do a good job of that, would you say?

John: It takes practice. It’s a constant practice. I can feel like I’m leading myself well, and then lose track of it, lose track of my practice. Stop journaling, forget to meditate, away from my practices for a little bit, and then I’m like, wait a second, something’s off. It’s a constant practice. It’s not like, okay, now I’ve arrived, I’m enlightened, and I lead myself exceptionally well from now on forward. No, it’s constant every day. It can be even just a quick moment to take a breath. To pause and acknowledge where you’re at on that day and leading yourself exceptionally well can be in saying no. It can be in today’s not the best day for that conversation. It can be delaying something to when it would be the right time for you to be able to show up for the other person, for your team, or what you have to do in that day. Or maybe it’s a change in environment. But it takes a certain sense of awareness to notice where you’re at. Notice where you’re at each day. So yeah, I’d say that managing yourself exceptionally well really, really starts with self-awareness. And we say that a lot. It gets thrown around a lot, mindfulness, self-awareness. But I can’t reiterate that and I can’t emphasize that enough for people. That to be able to notice your thoughts, and I love how you said thinking, the one you wanted to point out is your best one, like your mindset and the way that you’re creating your world, starts with your thoughts. And it starts with noticing your thoughts and not attaching yourself to them. Right. Seeing that, seeing your thoughts go by and maybe it’s a rogue thought. Maybe it is a rogue, like, Oh, I’m just, you know, I don’t know if I’m cut out for this. Right. Then look at, you know, where’s that coming from?

Tony: Yeah. Right. Yeah. And you know, with leading yourself exceptionally well, one thing that we didn’t cover is your ability to make relationships. So even though we’re talking about you and yourself, you want to make sure that you open yourself up to be a person that is approachable, a person that is someone who is easy to talk to, especially if you’re at the beginning of your career. Don’t show up as a know-it-all. That is like, That is a sin, okay? In the professional world, showing up as a know-it-all really won’t get you anywhere, especially if you’re working for an organization with many people that have different things to do and they’ve been there longer than you. I mean, you just don’t want to do that. And then on top of that, if you are a new manager, a new leader, leading up or down, you don’t want to show up and make a whole bunch of changes either. You want to spend time learning the organization, And again, getting to know people and a lot of that comes from making your own self available, showing up as your whole self and making sure that you are leading exceptionally well. So I just want to point that out to don’t forget about the people. Yeah.

John: Embrace your ignorance.

Tony: Hmm.

John: to be able to come in and know that there’s something, there’s something that I can learn every day, that I can learn from all levels of the organization, right? From your people, right? From your mentors, from your peers, that there’s always something that you don’t know. And I want to tie you’re leading yourself well back to the one of the four agreements. I know this is a key foundation of this podcast and our lives. Sure. Is not taking anything personally. It’s so much more difficult to learn if you’re taking things personally. If you’re taking feedback to heart to mean something about you, as opposed to giving you information that you can take action on. Everything’s just information, people’s reactions, what you hear in feedback, what you hear from the organization. It’s just information. Look for information. That’s how you learn. That’s how you embrace your ignorance, right? So you can’t lead yourself exceptionally well if you’re taking everything personally.

Tony: Hmm.

John: Ain’t that the truth? Right. And now directly towards leading up. I love this next one in lighten your leaders load. I love the way that that’s, phrase there because, right, it’s doing your job exceptionally well, but then I think it’s really looking for something more. It’s noticing issues, noticing pain points, and having those conversations with your leadership as well. What struggles have they been facing? What struggles are they seeing that the organization is having? even if it’s not directly related to your role, like there might be an insight that you have that can lead to something being extremely, extremely helpful. So your insight matters, even if it’s your first day on the job, like you can really come in with an outside perspective and seeing things with cold eyes is a gift in itself, right? And that’s another thing that would plug in from leading down is like really appreciate cold eyes. The longer that you’ve been in a role in an organization, the more you’re ingrained with a confirmation bias, like wanting to reaffirm the beliefs that you already have. I’d say that come in with cold eyes, ask questions, get in the room with your leadership and determine what’s bothering them. What challenges they have? How do they manage up? What can make them look better? What can make their workload lighter? How do you make your team, your department look good and contribute more to the organization? I think that comes with that conversation and a commitment to doing work that filters up.

Tony: You know, one of the things I say when it comes to lightening your leader’s load is stand up for your leader. You know, that’s one thing that I personally really try to do. I don’t know, it’s been something I’ve just kind of adopted in my professional life since the beginning of my career. And what I try to do is not bad mouth the CEO or bad mouth the leadership in any way because In reality, that really does nothing. Think about it. If you badmouth the CEO, you badmouth the leadership, what is that actually doing for you? What is that doing for the person that you’re talking with? And what is that doing for that leader? It’s really just tearing down the organization at all three levels. And now you’ve isolated yourself or you’ve placed yourself as a person that maybe cannot be trusted or looked upon in a negative light. And that can carry on throughout your career. You never know what kind of conversations leaders have about you at that level, even from organization to organization, company to company, or even within divisions of a larger company. You know, it’s better to stand up for your leader. You don’t have to always believe in everything that they may say because maybe it’s something that you don’t foundationally agree with. But if you’re in a room and there’s an opportunity to stand up for that leader, do it because they’re going to that’s going to bubble up to them at some point on your behalf. And they’ll say, man, you know, I heard good things about Tony. He said that he believed in what we’re building here at this organization. And I trust someone like that. I want someone like that to be on my executive team. That’s the kind of thing you want people to say about you. And that starts with even small talk, hallway talk, what is it, water cooler, coffee breaks, whatever it may be. Don’t use those opportunities to tear your organization down. If you feel like that’s where you’re headed, you may want to find a different place to work. That’s also a lead-up principle too.

John: I think some of this can bring you into work that might not be aligned with what comes naturally to you or what’s easy. Doing things that lighten your leader’s load or going the extra mile and like really looking for those solutions that might be outside your job description, you know, like it might lead to some tough jobs, right? It might lead to, you know, some uncertainty, right? Some difficult people. But then, you know, when you’re willing to do what others won’t, you know, I think there’s this leadership energy, right? There’s this king or queen energy that you can carry at any level. And that’s like being able to step into those situations calm. And I think that circles back to not taking things personally, getting information that frees you to be able to step into the arena, right? Even though it might be a little bit uncomfortable, but if you come in with that calm energy, understanding like where your, you know, where your skill sets are, That doesn’t mean you’re going to step into the arena without any weapons. You got to get the right skill set, if your skill set’s aligned, and your leadership should be helping you with that. But it’s also something for you to look at. Where can I improve my skill set to be set up for this tough job, to be set up to work in some obscurity or some work with unknowns? So really setting yourself up for success for jobs that may be not exactly aligned with you in the moment, but you know that it’s useful for the organization and you’re doing it well, you’re going above and beyond, you’re trying to find other solutions. It’s your creative energy and the risks that you’re willing to take. Right? Because the king is willing to take a risk. He’s willing to put his self on the line if he feels like it’s in the best interest of his people. And that’s an energy that you can carry into the room. And that starts with not taking anything personally, having a growth mindset, understanding that you’re doing your best. So when you take in those jobs, it’s really going to put you at a level above and beyond your peer groups. It’s going to be noticed. You just have to set yourself up, leading yourself exceptionally well, having the self-awareness, having this growth mindset that you’re really just here to learn, to be able to put yourself in the arena and make it happen. Don’t take it personally, get in the arena, shoot your shot.

Tony: 100%. There’s been times in my career where I’ve been able to raise my hand and volunteer for things within companies that I’ve worked for, organizations that I’ve worked with, and even outside of work, too, doing extracurricular things to really further deepen my leadership skills. Every time i volunteered for something it’s open the door for something else and then for something else and then for something else i’ve had times or someone’s literally told me. I think you don’t know how to say no i think you volunteer for things and you just kinda jump onto it without really thinking about what i’m like that. You don’t know me at all.” It’s like, no, I really do this for real. I do this on purpose and it’s not because I don’t know how to say no or I don’t know where I want to go. It’s because there’s somebody at the end of that road that is watching everything that we’re doing when it comes to work. There’s a boss, there’s a leader. someone that is seeing what everybody is doing, they can see the playing field just a little bit differently than we can as players. And so, just imagine sports, you know, when you’re watching a sport, you can clearly see who is the best player on the floor or on the field. And so, when the leader is watching people perform and they’re seeing this one person go above and beyond, what do you think they’re going to say about that person? they’re gonna say i want that person on my team i want that person to be promoted i want that person to be lifted up or leveled up or be which is one of my favorites i want them to receive a pay increase you know it’s all it’s all these different things that come about just because you go above and beyond and you make the right choices and you do things that others won’t. There’s a great quote on doing what others won’t. It says that in order to live the life that most people don’t, you have to be willing to do what most people won’t. And I heard that maybe, I don’t know, seven, eight years ago. I’m like, that is so true. To live the life that most people don’t, you have to be willing to do what most people won’t. And so that is relationship building, that’s volunteering, that’s raising your hand, that’s stepping out, that’s doing multiple tasks sometimes at once, that’s working without being paid for. It’s all these different things that you do. But what that’ll eventually do is open up a window for you to walk into the life that you’ve really been wanting to live because the work that you’ve been doing and the sacrifices that you’ve been making.

John: That’s such a great quote. Wow. I think there’s still a balance and I think that the best energy is when you’re doing that, when you’re paying your dues, when you’re doing what others won’t, if you can still manage your values, you can still manage to keep your life balanced and feed your soul from different aspects of your life outside of work, You know, if you can do that and go above and beyond now, that is leadership, right? That’s that’s not just managing your time like you’re leading a life that you enjoy. Right. And what better leader would it be to look up to? Is it, you know, is it one that is just grinding and grinding and not actually living their life? Or is it one that keeps that balance and takes risks, puts themselves out there, gets in the arena, does things that others won’t, and at the same time is having fun?

Tony: Having fun.

John: I was just thinking that when you’re talking. I was like, having fun. Right. When we stop having fun, what’s the reason we’re here? No matter you’re leading up, leading down, a key part of leadership is enjoying your life and letting people know that that’s a priority. Now, that being said a key part of that and keeping things fun and having fun in the workplace and outside of the workplaces all in your relationships. You know, it’s this place isn’t meant to be enjoyed in a silo. So when you’re investing in your relational chemistry with your leaders, with everyone around you, it’s Making things fun for one, and two, you’re learning so much more about that person, their drives, their initiatives, and you can get that much more information to understand what are the things you can do to go above and beyond. It’s because going above and beyond is making someone else’s life easier. In the end, it may actually make your life easier. But that all starts in the relationship and specific to leading up, it’s really getting to know the way that your leader thinks, the way that your leader perceives different situations, how they make decisions, the information that they need to make decisions, and Really, really listening to that and don’t hesitate to ask your leader questions. It’s like being in a leadership position and only speaking and only giving answers is not fun. Not being asked any questions, being a dictator is not fun. Don’t be afraid to ask your leader questions, like to ask your leader open questions that may be prying a little. That’s okay. It’s like, you know, let them let them feel a little bit uncomfortable. That’s great. You know, help them help them open up a little bit more. Like you can make your leader better by asking the right question with genuine interest and curiosity.

Tony: Mm hmm. Yeah, you know, because more than likely that leader wants to, they want people to buy into the vision. They want people to, they want to make sure people can fully understand what they’re saying and what they mean by what they say. So if you ask questions to your leader, especially when, you know, when a leader gives a presentation and at the end they say, any questions? And nobody says anything. If you’re that person that asks a thoughtful question, a good question, They’re going to remember that. And now, guess what? You now have an opportunity to connect with them further because maybe you can talk with them offline, you can talk with them in the hallway about that same question, or maybe they’ll come up to you and say, man, that was a great question you asked, John. Thanks for asking that. I hadn’t really thought of that like that, and I’m glad that you asked it the way you did because there probably was somebody else with that same question and they just didn’t say anything. They may say, hey, you asked a great question. I like the way you think. I think that there may be room for you down the road on another project that we’re getting ready to launch. And so let’s set up some time to have a one-on-one about that. Stuff like that actually happens in real life. And it can just be by you supporting your leader’s vision, like John said, and just asking clarifying questions just to further deepen that leader’s vision across the organization.

John: Yes, yes, I agree with that. And I think the last part of the relationship that is will make Such a difference in your life and career is earning your leader’s trust and really earning people’s trust in general. I think that comes from authenticity and integrity. Do what you say you’re going to do, and when you can’t, make it known. Period. Do what you say you’re going to do. I will have this to you by this day. If you hit a roadblock and that’s not going to happen, hey, I hit a roadblock, here’s what it is, and I’m not seeing that deadline being feasible at this point. What do you think would help me get to that deadline or what do you think could help me with this roadblock? right solicit their feedback if you have to double back on your original because when you set a deadline when you say i’ll have this to you by this time or we should be and when you’re setting out a timeline it’s based on the information that you have at that moment So that’s an integrity. But then when that information changes when you’re halfway through what you’re creating or in your project, shifting that timeline and being upfront is still an integrity with that timeline because you have new information. So be transparent, but do what you say you’re going to do. And when that changes, come right up front with it. And then trust is built there. Your word is everything. That will deepen the relationship to solidify it for the long haul.

Tony: Man, that’s so good. I really don’t have anything to add, man.

John: Because it’s real. It’s real. And then when you have those interactions with your leadership, treat that time as really precious too. Because as you move up the ranks, I don’t care what anyone says, you’re going to have less time. You have to prioritize your time in a way that is competing with the priorities of the organization and your personal priorities as a leader. So as you move up, If they can spend that time, that 10% of their time, 100% committed, right? But on your side, when you’re leading up, you got to understand that they’re taking that time to spend with you, right? And value that. Treat it as precious. Now, how do you do that? When you’re thinking of ways that you can value your leader’s time and that you’re really putting some effort in to acknowledging them, acknowledging them for taking that time, and then also that you’re prepared. It’s planning ahead before you get to the table. Thinking what your outcome for the meeting is and communicating that. If that’s out of line with what your boss’s intention is, great, but you came to the meeting with an intention and a purpose. That shows that you’ve taken that initiative and that you’ve planned and you value their time. You show up early, You’re there on time you got You have something prepared. You have an intention for the conversation and you’re ready to get right into it, right?

Tony: Mm-hmm.

John: Now, what else do you think would add to that Tony for the listeners? I

Tony: Yeah, I was going to say, man, it’s really critical to learn to speak your boss’s language, you know, learn how they operate, learn how they think, so that when you show up and you’re planning ahead for that meeting or that time with them, that you’re riding their wave. You know, they already have, they’re already moving. guaranteed they have a full schedule, they have a full plate, they have plenty going on in their professional lives and then probably have a family or have a lot going on in their personal lives too. As we just age and mature, your life just picks up. Maybe they have parents that they look after, you know, who knows what’s going on in that leader’s life, but they probably carry it very well and they’re very calm about it. But it makes everything so much smoother when you learn to speak their language. You know, Jeff Bezos, CEO of Amazon, he has a few principles that I want to share in the way he operates. And not to say that we should adopt these in our workplaces, but this will help you understand how some CEOs think. So he limits the amount of participants in his meetings. He likes to have small meetings with just a few people rather than 10 to 20 to 30 people in a meeting because he has a theory that it just is more effective with less people. They don’t use PowerPoints in Jeff Bezos meetings. They use memos. So he requires a six-page memo over a PowerPoint. Very interesting, but effective probably for him. And what I thought is the most interesting thing when it comes to the language that he speaks for his company is Instead of, when they start the meeting off, they actually take 30 minutes and it’s just silence. And the silence is folks getting a chance to read those memos, right? So you say, why would you write a six-page memo? Why would you bring a six-page memo to a meeting? Well, because they’re going to create time for everybody to read the memo in the meeting, and then they talk about the information that’s to be discussed that was written in such detail. And that just kind of makes their meetings flow in the direction that him as a leader wants. And so your leader might have a way of doing things. Your leader might have come from a different industry. Your leader might have come from a different side of the world, a different side of the U.S. where they may do things different on this side or this coast or this area geographically. So you really want to get to know how your leader thinks. So when you plan ahead and you show up, you are just adding value. They’re not having to teach you in their time with them. You want to listen, learn, scope it out. And then when you show up like that, they’ll see you as someone they can trust. And I’m telling you, they’ll bring you on because It gets real at the top. They’re always looking for more people that’s on their team. Make sure you think about that when you’re meeting with your leaders.

John: Wow. I’m glad that you brought that up, Tony, because I think that’s a great way to understand how your leader thinks. When you have a new boss come in, or you’re working for a new team, that might be a great question to right away ask your manager, right? What are like if you were to lay out three principles that you live by as a leader, what would they be?

Tony: Mm hmm.

John: boom, then you understand those are the three principles. I can structure all my communications to them and you’re on the ball. I love that. I love that. It’s super important. Then it moves into having the self-awareness to really understand when to push, when to back off. I love that. It’s because we’re strong proponents of having the confidence to be in the arena, take the action, take the risks. But at the same time, that comes with the understanding of knowing when it might not be the right time to take that risk, to know when it might not be the right time to ask the prime question. Really read into the energy of the room, the energy of your leader, and what’s happening around you. You have to have the social awareness to be able to see when it’s the right time for a question, and don’t overthink it. Trust your intuition. You’ll know when something feels off, and trust that. You’ll know when it feels right. If you’re in the middle, maybe sit with it for a little longer. But you’ll know because that can be a thing to rub someone the wrong way at the wrong time is all. It doesn’t mean that you’re wrong or what you’re saying or asking is wrong. It could just be the wrong time. So have that awareness, trust your intuition. Going back to leading yourself well, that comes from having the right self-awareness practices. It comes from being able to notice those shifts in your feelings, your intuition, so you can know when to pry, when to back off, when to ask the in-depth question, and make sure that it adds value. That you’re not just asking for more information to let your voice be heard. Notice if your questions and things are just coming from ego. Let it be genuine, a genuine curiosity of something that adds value or clarify something for you, which will then create better work for the organization and your team.

Tony: Yep. And, you know, the more that you become a go to player for your company, the more you lighten your leader’s load and the more that you again are able to lead up. And that’s what influencing is all about. You know, you don’t have to be a leader. You could be an individual contributor. You could be a team member on a team of 10. That is, again, very entry level position. But when you’re a go to player and you’re someone that people can count on and people can trust. they’re going to lean on you, they’re going to work you, but they’re also going to trust you. And when they trust you like that, your name will circulate in a way where people can say, you know what? Every time I call John, he always answers. He always helps me out. He stays late. And when the time for a raise or promotion comes along, you better believe that John’s going to be on the short list. as opposed to being someone who shows up to the office and says, look, I’m just here to do my job. I don’t want to do anything extra. I’m here to just collect my paycheck and go home and live my life. Well, if that’s all you want to do, that’s fine, but that’s where your influence will stop. That’s where your ability to lead up will stop. It will stop right when you said that I came here just to do my job. And when you cap yourself like that, people that do that, they wonder why they aren’t being promoted. They wonder why they’re being passed up. They wonder why other people are getting the opportunities that they wish and desire that they had. But you showed up to work and said that I’m only going to stop here. Or you showed up and you said, I’m going to work hard, but I’m going to bad mouth people along the way. Well, I mean, either way you go about that, you’re not being a go-to player because you’re not someone that people can count on. Or maybe you’re not a person of integrity because of the things that you say. So I just… said all that because i want to make sure that you understand that we’re talking about 360 leadership and leading from the bottom up or leading from any level up and in order to do that you really want to be someone that people can count on and that is a self-awareness strategy But also, it’s how you show up physically and mentally to work, too. Do you have the energy that is going to transfer so people can say, man, I love when Sheila shows up. Sheila just lights up the room when she comes in the room. Or are you a person who creeps in with a dark cloud over your head and sit in the back and the first to leave and the last to show up? Well, people are watching you, and they’re going to notice that. So don’t forget that people are definitely paying attention.

John: Right. And I think through all of these strategies, right through everything that we just talked about in this episode, like you become a go-to player. You know, you start embodying these things, you start taking risks, you start developing relationships up. You start asking the right questions at the right time. Like it’s just natural. Like, you will become that because you’re embodying the go-to player. And, you know, it’s funny when, you know, if you were to ask someone right off the bat, you know, what do you think you need to do to become the go-to player? You know, they might take a moment, hesitate, and really just say, like, I don’t know, work a ton, right? But then when you ask them, who is the go-to player for you? Then it’s like, oh, yeah, no, there’s been these people I relied on or this mentor I relied on. Now, tell me about their qualities. What makes them a go-to player? When you put things outside yourself like that, it’s a lot easier for people to define. It’s like, oh, wow, there’s all these things. Now, which one of those do you think you can embody? That’s the track of a coaching conversation, really. When I work with people that are working on leading at different levels of the organization, it’s defining what that go-to player is. Then sometimes when they do it in third person, then they can start to define what that looks like for them. What is my unique picture of a go-to player? What are the things that I want to implement in my day-to-day to start embodying that? I think that’s just one way to wrap that up with this last point here is trust the process. Don’t try to be everything and be the go-to player that you want to be today, right now. It’s trust that that develops one characteristic at a time, one question at a time, one conversation at a time, and that it’s a practice. What he says here is be better tomorrow than you are today, simple as that, one day at a time. Then at the same time, if you’re not better tomorrow, If you take a step back tomorrow, it takes two steps forward the next day. Don’t worry about it. Don’t take life so seriously. Don’t take your leadership development so seriously. Have fun.

Tony: I couldn’t say it better, man. I think that that’s a perfect segue as we close. I know in the last episode, we left it off with talking about having fun. I’d also say give yourself grace too. Give yourself grace on the journey, give yourself grace in life, especially if you take that principle that John just said and be better tomorrow than you are today. Because maybe today isn’t the best day for you, but there’s always a better tomorrow. And if you show up with that mindset and that mentality, what’ll happen is the days will get lighter and lighter and lighter and lighter. And then you’re able to have more fun but you gotta start with giving yourself grace don’t look so far back in the past. You beat yourself up about who you haven’t been who you used to be. Is always a better future ahead when you have the right mindset so we hope that you’re able to take these principles today and really. focus on how you can lead up because i promise you no matter where you are in an organization you can make an impact to your leadership with the right mindset the right energy and the right focus beautifully said all right my friends thank you so much again for listening we appreciate you we appreciate this community and as it grows

John: We are wanting to engage with you guys more and more, so please look for different ways to engage with us at thepresentprofessionalpodcast.com. Please rate us and review us anywhere that you get your podcasts. Share it with your friends and let us help this community grow and produce more present professionals, my friends. Thanks again for listening. Have a great day.