Recognizing and Overcoming Burnout

John: You’re listening to The Present Professional, where we explore the intersections of personal and professional development.

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John: Welcome back to the Present Professional. We’re your hosts, Tony Holmes and John Marshall. Here, we’re going to be talking about a topic that is rampant across our corporate culture, across entrepreneurship, and really just across all areas of life right now that have been so demanding, that have been so unpredictable with the pandemic and with everything else that technology is throwing into the pace of our lives. We’re talking burnout. All things, what it is, how to overcome it, where you can proactively be moving your energy. Some tips and tricks as we move along the way for individuals, for leaders, for parents, for sons, daughters, everything that you can balance your life around and all the different sources of burnout. what things that contribute to it and things that you can do to get ahead of it. So again, the present professional is here for you to define strategies for you to move forward in life, to be more fulfilled, more whole, complete, and more productive in what you do in your life and work. So with all that being said, I’m going to go right in to the definition of burnout. And I was on a webinar before and a gentleman mentioned it in this way, and I wanted to bring this up first. And he mentioned it as a process of locked doors, continuous lock doors, and where it adds up. Things add up in front of you. So maybe one day it’s child care. Maybe one day it’s your boss asking you to recycle on a presentation for the fourth time, even though you don’t see the value in it. Maybe the next door is a flat tire. Maybe the next door is yard work that’s been a week past due because you had something else going on that weekend. And it’s just kind of all of these things adding up until you get to a point where it feels like the overwhelm has reached such a point to where there’s no way out that sometimes you just want to curl up and go inside. Sometimes you want to run away. It is a chronic inducing of this fight or flight response that can lead to many different health effects, psychological effects, and if it’s not dealt with proactively and in a way that’s mindful, in a way that you’re aware of what’s leading to it and what brings you out of it, like what brings you towards a state of wholeness. So it starts with that awareness again. But then there are so many different ways that this conversation can go. There are so many different ways that it can show up in your life because every single situation is unique. So we’re going to talk a little bit about that too and how it can apply to different people in different ways. And I think that’s what I have right now. I would say it’s this overwhelm. You’re hitting all of these locked doors until you’re just overwhelmed.

Tony: Yeah, man, you know, when you were talking, it made me think of something and, you know, I don’t mind going deep. I always, that’s where I live in the deep. But honestly, it made me think about the indigenous people that lived in the land before us, right? So now we live in a very corporate, capitalistic, make money, be busy, Now you have a cell phone that’s on you, you wake up, it’s dinging, you’re checking emails, you’re checking Twitter, you’re responding to text messages, all these things, right? But that’s not normal. It’s really not. We define it to be normal. now because that’s our current society but there are people who lived in the earth and they just sharecropped and farmed and sang songs together and they built fires like you know the basic things in life and things that were maybe stressful to them back then but in comparison to that to now I mean sure it’s stressful I’m sure to be chased by a wild animal or chasing wild animals but I’m saying that the amount of things that we have on our plate today, the to-do lists, the locked doors that come day after day after day after day, it’s really just not normal. And so when you recognize that as we go through life, that that’s just a part of life, being busy like that. It’s not your actual life, and it doesn’t have to be. That’s what gives me peace, is when I can step back and say, wait a minute, I’m a human being. I’m not a human doing. And when I can recognize that and just be like that, it just gives me peace. So let me ask you, man, what to you is the opposite of burnout? If burnout is what you define it to be, How do you manage burnout?

John: That’s a great question. And I just want to even reiterate one more time what you said, human beings, not human doings. So good. So good. So true. And that carries so much weight to it. The opposite of burnout. The opposite of burnout I look at as balance, really, like this sense of wholeness in your life. And that has a different definition for every individual. And it comes down to what you value. What are the roles and commitments that you see as a major part of your life, like as a major part of what you want to contribute to? Is it your work? Is it your family? Is it being in touch with your friends? Is it contributing to your community? There are so many different things that we can be committed to at one time. And my, my rule of thumb is that you can really only be committed to six different things at one time, six different commitments or roles that you can have in your life. And this could be just an example, what I’m working with. And seven roles kind of gets you to, seven roles kind of gets you to like a whole different level where you’re always leaving something neglected. So the way that this looks for me right now is, you know, I look at it as, I look at it as a son, son and grandson. I’m a business owner, so I’m a leader, leader in that way. Even aside of just the business things in the back, I’d consider my coaching relationships as its own role. Then there’s different ways that I show up. For example, a role that you have, Tony, as a husband is one that I’m not dedicating energy towards right now. There’s so many different ways where we’re balanced that it’s going to be different for whatever situation that everyone is in. All of that to say, it really is starting with what is your picture of balance? That can be between roles and commitments, that can be between different areas of your life, whether that be spirituality, education, self-development, work, your career, nutrition, health. Are you touching on each of these parts? And it can be which one is drawing too much energy. And then when we get into work and career, it can be what aspects of your career What aspects of your career are you banging your head against the locked door? Maybe there’s one part where you need to have a difficult conversation to free up some of that energy. When it comes to freeing up that energy at work, A big part of it is setting boundaries. A big part of it is understanding the environment. It’s going to draw some more energy when you’re new at a company, when you’re new in a role. You’re proving out your reputation if you already have one or building one if you don’t. And that’s gonna take another social component to pulling energy from that particular position. And that’s just that’s just a fact and it’s going in getting to know the organization getting to know the group getting to know the people that you’re working with the customers. I mean. There’s so many different things, but that should start to fade a bit, right? Once you get the lay of the land, once you understand what’s essential, what’s not, what’s the priority, what’s not. And then you can start to balance that out and give some more of that energy back to other parts of your life, right? Because we’re not living to work, right? We’re working to live.

Tony: Man, you said a lot right there, the way you ended it too. To me, one of the things that stood out is energy. You talked about energy throughout what balance looks like. realizing that just like a phone battery, you know, we only have so much energy to give every day. And it’s like when you’ve talked about those seven things, those six or seven commitments, how are you going to spread that energy across your day? How are you going to spread that energy across your life? You know, when you were talking, I literally wrote out my seven things. And I was like, let me make sure I’m Make sure I’m in line, man. Let me check myself. And that’s something I always do, too, is like, I’m so blessed and fortunate to have coaches and people like you around so that I can pull from, so that I just become a better person. If you don’t have a coach, man, find one. Reach out to John, reach out to me. We’d love to help you, because coaching is super helpful and important on your road to becoming your best self. One of the things I wrote down for My 7 Things is a friend. I actually wrote that in a place where I feel like it matters. I realize in my life that friendships mean so much to me, it means so much to the people I’m connected to, and we’re so robotic these days that we forget to just be a friend and just be there for somebody else, listen, have fun without it being transactional.

John: Mm-hmm, man. I you know, I pulled up my list actually when when you were mentioning that and what why don’t we I like where that’s at And why don’t we just kind of read that read that off? I just wanted to give the listeners that in mine right now is friend brother and uncle son grandson a leader manager life and career coach a student and a yoga teacher, those are my seven. So when, so there, notice like right there’s no, there’s no girlfriend, wife in there. When, when that enters in one of these days, one of these others are going to have to fall off. It’s just eight, eight is just unmanageable and you lose something there.

Tony: For sure. That’s why I stopped at seven and I didn’t even think about other things that I’m even remotely committed to. It’s funny how some of the things have already fallen off. I used to be a board member for a non-profit and the non-profit’s closing and I’ve just pulled myself out of the process. I’m a student now. So I’ll start with that. I’m a student, doctoral student at USC. I’m a director of talent and diversity. I’m also a coach. And I consider coaching to be a lot of multifaceted things, even if I’m spending time with people in a video or audio format. I even consider this podcast to be a part of my coaching practice because, I mean, we are kind of doing that naturally. When it comes to family more so, and this is in no particular order, I didn’t, I just kind of just spit it out, but a husband for sure. My wife is my best friend and so it’s just, we just take on the world together and we just roll with the punches and we build and have a lot of fun together and we’re just on the same page all the time, thankfully. She’s probably even listening. I could scream and say, Crystal, are you listening? She’d probably be like, yes. You know, her heart would be like all melting. The newest thing for me, man, I’m a dad, man. I’m a dad. I’m a full on dad. And yeah, it’s huge. And my son is very, like, he makes his presence known. So I can’t even, I’m not like a half dad. Like, I’m a full dad. So come in from work and it’s like, just like a movie. It’s like, can’t even take my belt off, you know, still got the work clothes on. And I put family member, brother, son, uncle, all those things. And then lastly, of course, a friend. And there are other things I’m like committed to that I’m a part of, but I really don’t think so. I think these are my main things. And my wife and I together, we do things. So yeah, yeah, that’s where I spend my energy, man, for sure. And I was gonna pivot to how to recognize when you are burnt out, because I think that that’s something that people need to know, or it needs to be put out there, because you need to… have some kind of boundaries and safeguards to know that they’ve been crossed. You need to know when the line has been crossed and you are at a place where you don’t want to be. I was on a call yesterday doing some coaching. I was a client for someone who just needed some hours and she was coaching me. And she brought up something that I’d love to share here on the podcast, which is a definition of something that I never really noticed that I do. And I’m pretty sure everybody else does it too. And it’s what’s called self-imposed deadlines. So you have these deadlines that you want to hit. And that’s kind of similar to those locked doors. Sometimes it’s, you know, your boss or someone else giving you those deadlines. But for me, at least, a lot of times it’s the pressure I put on myself. And I’ve noticed that and I’ve started to place deadlines more in the future in an organized way where I’m not just putting it off to say one day, but I’m actually saying in two weeks, you know, I’ll start this project or I’ll do this or in three weeks I’ll do that. But that helps me manage my burnout, it helps me find balance. And so for people who are feeling like you are not yourself, that is kind of a first step to recognize when you’re burnt out. Sometimes people in your family or your life will tell you too that you haven’t been yourself. And don’t take that as criticism, but just take that as an opportunity to look in the mirror and really ask yourself, is the person that you are right now the person that you want to become in the future? Or have you gone too far away from the values and the mantras or the respect that you set out for yourself? Have you gone too far away from that? And also, when you’re recognizing if you’re burnout, You know, I’d say that you need to take a look at the relationships in your life and notice if you have burned relationships because that could be a part of you being burnt out if you have let your energy get to a place where people don’t want to be around you or people can’t recognize who you are anymore and you don’t even recognize who you are either. And that is when you may want to start to pivot and revert back to walking back towards what makes you, you. And even, I’m sure John has some tips that he’s going to share, but just recognizing it is a huge step because we are a culture of deniers, like we’ll be all on Instagram. Denying that we have some serious issues or things we need to solve and burnout is a huge thing in our culture today.

John: I love what you said there about just the culture that we have today and what you mentioned about relationship and not nurturing the relationships that are important to you can be a serious, serious factor when it comes to burnout. those relationships that you mentioned as you were going through your roles. If there’s a part of being a family member and there’s a key family member that you haven’t talked to in a year, but they’re important to you, that can be adding to your burnout. Those are the things that people don’t see, but you see your manager, you see the workload in front of you day after day after day, but then those little things that feed your soul in the background, if you’re neglecting them, like that can be adding to your burnout just as much. So, um, I love that, that you brought that up and some other symptoms, again, like not feeling, not feeling like yourself, like you mentioned. And then it’s like, what does that look like? Right. When, when I don’t feel like myself, How does that show up in my body? How does that show up in my energy, in my day-to-day? Is it harder to get out of bed? Is it feeling like you can’t be bothered, like you’re ready to check out? Like, you know what? It’s just not even worth it anymore. Even though you want to do more, it’s feeling impossible. Not feeling like I can make any progress. It’s that overwhelming sensation of, I just can’t do this anymore. That’s why I like to take it with my clients a little bit deeper into what does that feel like? Can you walk me through a moment where you just felt like I just can’t do this anymore, where you’ve reached a point of overwhelm and through the somatic experience of where does that show up in your body? Is it a tight chest? Is it a low hanging head over your shoulders? Is it a tightness in the low back? How does it show up for you? And so that’s really what I have to add to recognizing it is taking a moment, whether it be in meditation, working with a coach, a therapist, really going into like, what are those signs when it’s like, Oh, I might be neglecting something in my life that supports me. Or I might be going past the boundary in an area that is not supporting me.

Tony: That’s so good, man. And also, are you doing something that you normally wouldn’t do to cope? Do you have coping mechanisms that are harming you when you are in this place? Are you drinking more? Are you eating more? Are you smoking more? What’s going on that you can visibly recognize that you normally wouldn’t do? And is that a coping mechanism or are you just having fun? What’s realistically going on with you?

John: Yeah, it’s like a reality check. Being able to sit with yourself and say, what’s this really for? what’s really behind this. And I think that the level of self-awareness, it requires taking the time, taking the time to look at yourself, your life. So when it comes to achieving balance and being proactive with your mental health, being proactive with living a balanced life, being proactive and understanding what is a whole and balanced life for me, what does that look like? That can be defining your roles and commitments, tracking that. It can be looking at your life wheel and how those different aspects of your life are balanced. And I think those are two key things we can put in the show notes, actually, is that wheel of role and commitments and a life wheel just for folks to take a look at. and take some time to take stock of where they’re spending their energy, what’s taking away from it, what’s adding to it, and work with your coach on it, or work with an accountability partner into balancing your life out there.

Tony: I was just going to add real quick, and knowing or recognizing and knowing, I guess, how you handle disappointment. I think that that is something that is another thing that people could take a look at is when you’re disappointed, when you don’t get the job, when you don’t get the call, when the relationship doesn’t work out, when your boss overlooks you. How do you handle those moments in your life? Is that contributing to your burnout?

John: You know, I think, Tony, I’m going to say that’s a whole episode. That’s a whole episode that we’re going to call growth versus fixed mindset.

Tony: Oh, yeah. Let’s do it. I got a book about that. I think we’ve probably talked about that book, so yeah, let’s do it.

John: That’s a whole episode right there because that’s exactly how we would answer that question, is how you respond to that is, do I feel like now my identity is crushed and never going to be the same or that I live and I learn and I grow? So then when it comes back to achieving balance there, a big part of that, you know, we talked about proactive mental health, like doing a lot of the things to understand where your life’s out of balance and move the energy towards the things that support you. But what we didn’t cover yet is setting the boundaries to prevent leakage. setting boundaries to know when it’s time to go home, when it’s time to end the conversation. That could be when it’s time to come home from work, that can be when it’s time to come home from the party. There are different things and there are different ways that people try to skate around their boundaries and please others. For me, it’s showed up as as people pleasing, like, oh, well, you know, then. It won’t be the same when I’m gone, so I’ll just stick around. Oh, I don’t want to disappoint so-and-so, so I’ll just stick around. Or trying to be something else for someone at the moment that is not authentically who I am, whether that be in a workplace or social setting. And I can feel that. draining my energy, like leading to burnout, like when I’m not being in integrity with myself, right? The promises that we make to ourselves are the easiest ones to break, and they are the biggest reflection of your authenticity and your energy. And that’s just how I feel about it when I start keeping promises to myself in integrity with my boundaries.

Tony: Man, that’s good. That’s real, too. And it’s like, I think that there’s a balance in being okay with withdrawing a bit. I think that in this post-COVID, post-pandemic, or we’re kind of still in it, this current lifestyle we’re living, everybody had a chance to just kind of sit still and withdraw. Some people did well, some people didn’t. But now I just feel like we’re in a place where a lot of people still are withdrawn socially. And that’s okay if you don’t feel like yourself and you don’t feel like you want to get out socially. But there is something in human connection that is necessary. So find balance. If you are withdrawing from people that you love, that that could be something bigger than even burnout. It could be depression, it could be something even that may require more maybe therapy. But whatever those things are, I just want to tell the listeners to find balance even in your social life. It’s okay to withdraw when you don’t feel good or you don’t feel like you want to, if you’re not yourself. But then there’s a flip side to that people who, when you’re around certain people, it brings you an energy that you just can’t get when you’re by yourself, period.

John: Yeah, we’re social beings. And those key relationships are really key to your survival. When it comes to the Harvard study of adult development, they showed that The people that live, so just to describe to listeners what that is, it’s the longest longitudinal study of human life that’s ever been conducted. And through that, they discovered that the people that lived longer, healthier, happier lives had more deep relationships that they’ve nurtured throughout life, period. That was the 100% conclusive finding. was that good relationships that you nurture for a long time keep you happier and healthier, period. That’s one thing that I work with my clients on that I stress to people that I love is that these relationships, this is important. This is like life or death. Literally, maintaining these relationships, maintaining my connection to you, it supports both of our health. By calling that person that feels like it’s been too long, it hasn’t been too long. Just call them. It could be short. Be like, I love you. I miss you. I know you might be busy, but that’s it.

Tony: I’ll challenge people even further. We text people all the time, but what about just setting up a dinner? Just you and someone else that you care about, friend, family member you love, just one-on-one, just going to dinner. What’s better than splitting some pasta and some wine with somebody that you care about? A text message only can do so much, but that face-to-face interaction where it’s just, no, again, it’s not transactional and you guys are just enjoying yourselves. It’s life changing.

John: I feel that. Let’s set it up. Good people, good food, good people, good food, good drinks, good life. So I feel like we’ve been talking about a lot of things to get ahead of burnout, to notice it, to achieve balance in your life, long-term things that we can work on here. But I wanted to shift to just some quick tips. Noticing that there’s that short-term overwhelm that maybe you’ve gone too far down a rabbit hole, that maybe there’s something going on where you’re feeling the flight or flight response in the moment. And how do you come out of that? How do you come out of that to check in with yourself to have a clear mind? And the number one thing that’s across so many different lines of research that has shown that connecting with nature quickly is the biggest alleviator of short-term burnout and short-term overwhelm. It’s like just simply stepping outside to the park, going on a short walk, going to sit on a park bench or something, going to sit near the lawn outside the office, just going to short walk. Connecting with nature can be the quickest way to come back to equilibrium. What else do you got, Tony?

Tony: I mean, I love that one alone. That’s why I’ve said earlier, you know, first we were indigenous people. Never forget that. We lived outside and now we don’t even go outside. And then we have a state of chaos across people’s psyche and you wonder why. So I love that nature piece. Love a good park run. I think that another one, of course meditation, but sometimes even if you don’t, we talked about this in a previous episode about meditation, but I love just giving yourself the ability or the permission to just take some short breaths wherever you may be. Close your eyes and just breathe a little bit. Count to 10. And not just count to 10 because you’re pissed off, you hear that, You mad? Count to 10. No, like I mean, I’m tired, I’m overwhelmed, I’m stressed, I’m going into a meeting, I’m coming out of a meeting. I mean, whatever it may be, just count to 10, take some deep breaths wherever you may be. Oddly enough, you can even go into the restroom, into a stall and do that if you really just want to, you know, take some time for yourself. When you take that time, I would honestly implore you to not be on your phone if you can. Put your phone away, maybe just sit there and just breathe, maybe to some nice relaxing music or something. and just take that time, that’s a quick tip for you. And speaking of phone, John knows I’ll do this. I’m just gonna say, don’t be afraid to turn your phone off and just be. You really are so productive without your phone, believe it or not. I mean, your phone is a great tool, don’t get me wrong. I love my phone for what it is, but if I’m really pressed for time or I’m doing a lot of different things or I have to think, act quickly, or focus, Man, I’ll just turn my phone off and I’ll just go to work. And you’ll be surprised at that five, 10 minute, 15 minute check in that you do on social media or whatever you may do is not there and you get time back. And then you can reward yourself with giving yourself that time.

John: Later. Yeah, I agree. And I think there’s another thing that you touched on there is adding in the music. Music can be something to mirror or uplift or slowly pull you towards another emotional state. We’re so connected to vibrations in music. I think that’s just a whole quick tip in itself. Maybe there’s a song that you can come back to. Maybe there’s a song that you know that calms your nervous system. We can also do a whole episode on things to calm the nervous system as well. But I know there was some other topics that we wanted to hit here and more about What are some typical roles or I guess states of being that people will be in that can lead to burnout?

Tony: Yeah, I got a couple, man. And I definitely think that a lot of people relate to this, so I’m not alone. But the overachiever spirit, man, I just wanted to touch on that. I’ve accepted that I’m kind of an overachiever and I have been burnt out before by being an overachiever and in this season of my life I’m kind of doing that again to a degree. I have a lot going on, a lot of commitments. That’s what I say. I’m not busy, I have a lot of commitments. There we go. But even in that, what I’ve accepted or what I’ve learned to do with my overachiever spirit is be okay with, and I don’t mean this from a student or academic standpoint, but in life, be okay with sometimes getting a B plus in a relationship or whatever it may be. When you are a high performer, a lot of times you want to be perfect in everything you do. And sometimes a B plus is perfect. I think about how medical doctors call what they do practice, right? They practice. And then I think about how an athlete, when they perform, it’s a game. And so sometimes in life, you can go through a day by day, day by day, and if you just allow it to be practice or you allow it to be a game, you will give yourself more grace. So I’m a huge basketball fan, right? Or football. Let’s use Tom Brady, right? Tom Brady is arguably the best football player of all time, or at least for our generation. Arguably. I’m not gonna go there with people. That’s why I didn’t use LeBron James. I used Tom Brady. Tom Brady throws interceptions. Tom Brady has fumbles. Tom Brady gets sacked. But he still wins. And that’s what we have to be accepting of in our life is that sometimes we’re going to throw interceptions. Sometimes we’re going to lose the game. Sometimes we’re going to get sacked. But you still can win your life. You don’t have to let those moments or those days or those even weeks where you just feel like you’re losing take you out of the game. I have friends that say, man, how do you do it all? It’s because some days I lose. But I just keep showing up. And I show up more than I don’t show up. And I score more points than I throw interceptions. And that’s only because I keep showing up. And so when you are an overachiever and you are dealing with burnout, or more so when you’re an overachiever, you’re more likely to deal with burnout because you’re doing a lot. And so if you feel like you have, you can relate to that and you’re an overachiever or a high performer, be okay with the long game. Tom Brady’s like 42 years old and he’s still playing. He retired and unretired, come on. He has a love and a passion. Where’s your love and passion for your life?

John: Man, I can’t wait for the growth mindset episode because we pretty much already did half of it with that there. Because that’s what I would say is really looking at that long game. It’s like, I’m here to learn. I’m here to grow. I’m not here to get it right. Showing up. Now that we can show up for ourselves, and we’ve been talking a lot about the way that recognizing burnout in ourselves, how to be proactive with achieving balance in ourselves. But then once we start doing this work on our own, how can our listeners start to recognize this in others? And how do they spread the wealth?

Tony: Man, that’s such a good question. I think that first when you are recognizing burnout in other people, recognizing yourself that you could be making an assumption. So what you want to do is you want to ask questions. And even when you ask those questions, you really want to ask them with a very careful lens. You don’t want to just start asking them, but are you burnout? Are you okay? You seem stressed that’s gonna add stress like if people if somebody tells me you look stressed. I’m like really I didn’t think I was stressed. I don’t think I look stressed. Oh my God, what do I look like? Now I’m looking in the mirror. Now I’m going on a liquid diet. You don’t want to just say those kinds of things to people. So don’t make an assumption that somebody is burnt out first of all. You really want to be careful because if you do recognize that and it is obvious, then you really want to be careful about your approach and even just spending time with that person and really just listening. And when you listen, then you can ask your questions. If you listen first, like if you just start off with questions, they’re going to be defensive. So if you see someone and you know someone that may be going through a little bit of burnout or a little bit of things, Spend some time with them and just say, man, it’s been a while. So good to see you. How things going? Break the ice. People are going to tell you everything’s good. They always do. But once you spend more time, it’s not just a five to ten minute introduction. If you’re going to dinner with them, like I mentioned earlier. Now you got time for them to open up, and maybe you open up. Maybe you tell your story about a time you’ve been burnt out, and that’ll give them an opportunity to relate. And once they relate, that’s when you can start to give some tips. That’s when you can start to use some of the things that John and I are saying in the podcast today. starts to help them cope and help them learn, or even send them this episode and say, hey, I heard this great podcast, it’s about the present professional, and I just thought of you, check it out, this is the episode I listened to. And then they get to this point of the episode, they’ll say, oh, they recognized that I was burnt out, that’s why they sent it to me. But no, I mean, that’s how you help people. I don’t think you I don’t think you should assume and be gentle.

John: I agree with that, man. It’s really just being there for people and meeting them where they are. Right. Not trying to change anything about them, just recognizing where they are, acknowledging it, acknowledging that it’s not wrong and that you’re there. And that can be enough. Yeah. That can be enough. Then it really gets down to the last straw here, knowing when it’s enough, knowing when it’s time to leave, it’s time to exit, whether it’s a role, a relationship, a job, a career. When you start to know something is not serving you, its burnout can be a sign. Burnout can be a wake-up call that something’s just not aligned with your values. And so, Tony, how do our listeners know when it’s time to leave?

Tony: You only know how much you can take. You know how strong you are. So you have to decide if What you’re dealing with, what you’re going through is worth it. I think seeking professional help is certainly warranted. Maybe even a mentor. I would advise you to be careful with friends and family sometimes because they can be jaded in how they feel about you and they never want you to go through anything. But if you’re going through something serious, of course, you know, of course, ask friends and family. And it’s all serious, but I’m more so speaking to any type of abuse, whether it’s physical, psychological, mental. But if it’s work, if it’s a relationship, if it’s other things, you know, you have to decide because you are responsible for your journey of life. And so, you may have heard John mention fight or flight. Sometimes it’s okay to fly. I’ve been in situations where I fought, fought, fought, and my only other option was to leave. And after I left, it kind of was a huge weight off my shoulders. So, I just want to reiterate that for people, you are responsible for the occurrence and the things that are coming to your life, and be okay with exiting when you need to, but if you need to fight, put those gloves on, get that jump rope like a boxer, and get ready for a fight. Give them hell. Right.

John: Give them hell. And well, I agree with everything you just said. There’s so much that we can tolerate. As humans, we are so resilient, and we’re more resilient together. So I think the biggest thing coming out of this episode, if you take anything with you, it’s the relationships in your life are so important for achieving balance in your life, about avoiding burnout. And so if you can do anything, it’s set up that time for people you’ve been neglecting, set up that time for people that you love, that can support your journey and your growth and everything else take with you. And we are just so thrilled and delighted to have you as a listener. Please, please connect with us. Subscribe here. Download your episodes. Turn on notifications when we drop new episodes every Thursday. So you can find us at the present professional podcast dot com. You can find us on social media at the present professional on Instagram. Can find both Tony and I on Instagram as well as all the other platforms. Tony and Holmes and coach John Marshall and. We’re looking forward to having you on for the next episode. Please continue to listen along and continue to grow together, my friends. We’re here for you. Until next time.